half penny of Henry IV (England)

[Rangnath]

This coins seems to be 1737 or 1736 from Seaby's Coins of England and the UK. 

There is an "annulet" on either side of the crown.  I understand that half pennies from Richard II look quite similar and that the same dies were used.  If this coin is indeed from Henry IV, then it is likely minted in 1412 to 1413.  Am I putting too much on the "annulets?"

Anything that you can tell me about this coin would be appreciated.  I assume the crease marks on the obverse were designed to facilitate divisions and were probably added soon after minting by merchants? or by the mint?  Even the crease looks very much like a cross.  Perhaps a cross was used to strike the crease?

Are there numerous varieties of half pennies minted during Richard the II and Henry the V?  Could this coin be an overstrike?  What condition do you find the coin?  I lightened the coin digitally and enhanced the contrast but in no way removed scratches or dents. 

Someone told me that there are two significant types of half pennies from Henry IV.  One is worth 5 times the value of the other.  Of which type do we have here?

richie
richie

[Figleaf]

I have an archeological copy of Seaby with old numbers. Bart has a new edition; he might be able to confirm the monarch.

In my experience, one of the ways to determine the very confusing coinage of the period 1247-1485 is weighing the coin. As for Henry IV, Seaby mentions a coinage reform in 1412. Before, the halfgroat would weigh 36 grains (meaning 9 grains for the halfpenny). After, the groat would come in at 60 grains (7.5 grains for the halfpenny). Multiply grains by 0.0648 to get grams. I would expect from the pellet and annulet that your coin (which is in excellent condition for an English coin of this period) was struck after 1412.

As for the "crease marks", you often see them on coins of this period. They are simply the result of a planchet that is too thin, so the cross comes through on the other side. An extreme form of this effect is the bracteate, used especially in Germany in the high middle ages, where the reverse completely mirrors the obverse and there is no attempt to strike the reverse.

Peter

[Rangnath]

Well Peter, this is a light coin! My scale will give only an approximate reading; it rounds off to the nearest? .1 gram.
I wieghed the coin 10 times, in various places on the scale and got .4 grams each time or 6.1728 grains.
So, the coin was minted after 1412?
It is about 13 mm and, as you would expect, very thin.

Your explanation of the nature of the "crease" explains why the "crease" on the obverse mirrors the cross in the reverse.  (Richard, what were you thinking!  ) 

Was the coin ever divided into fourths?  Do we find such fragments?

OK Bart, What do you think?
richie

[Figleaf]

The coin is too light for before 1412 so that settles it.

It's also pretty close to its official weight. Coins near official weight would have been culled and remelted, maybe even before getting into circulation. I know of one Dutch case where the mint master shipped his complete production to a friendly jeweller who made sure people would not be burdened unnecessarily with their coins. All of which to say that the weight confirms that the coin has suffered very little wear.

Yes, coins were cut along the cross. We have an example on this forum! However, that's a penny cut in four. I have also seen a halfpenny cut in two once, but I am not aware of coins cut below farthing value. Which doesn't mean they don't exist, of course.

Peter

[bart]

Hi Richie,

As Peter already mentioned, I bought some weeks ago the newest edition of the Spink (former Seaby) catalog. I am afraid this makes me hardly an expert on this type of coins. As I am not (yet) familiar with these types of coins, I can look at the pictures and hardly find the differences. Also, I still have problems in reading the legends.

Following the catalog, it could be nr. 1737 (1736 seems to have dissapeared, it is not mentioned in this catalog).
Can you read the mint name on the cross-side?

Bart

[Figleaf]

I think it says CIVI   TAS   LON   (don, fourth part not readable), Bart.

Peter

[bart]

Thanks Peter. The London Mint makes sense for a Henry IV half penny.

My point was that I am not able to read myself those legends properly. It will take some exercise to learn to distinguish how those medieval letters look like. The moment I can do that, Spink's catalog will be of greater help regarding the pre-Tudor issues.

Bart

[Rangnath]

Thanks Bart. 

Is there any way to tell whether or not the half penny of Henry IV before devaluation is worth more or less than the half penny after devaluation?

In thinking about this, my assumption is that because there have been numerous devaluations and changes in denominations in silver coinage in England, that much of the pre tudor coinage has been melted down long ago.  That there was a devaluation in 1412 would not in itself determine whether or not a coin of 1413 would be less or more valuable than a coin of 1411 for the year 2007.
More significant, in my opinion, in affecting relative scarcity and consequent valuation would be 1. the number of coins minted from 1399 to 1412 versus the number minted from 1412 to 1413.  And  2. the fact that the lighter coin would survive the ages less well than the heavier coin, all things being equal. 

Another variable is the mint.  Does the fact that this coin was from the London Mint make this a less or more valuable coin? 
I don't have a clue about that one.  Any opinions?
richie

[Figleaf]

I don't know, but my guess is that time has been a big equalizer. In other words, all these coins are not often found, especially in good condition. Size, weight, quantity minted even mint don't  matter much any more. The only medieval coins that are somewhat (but only somewhat) easier to find are the ones that were international hits and got imitated everywhere. The denier and gros tournois comes to mind.

Quite another thing is in what grade coins are found by metal detectorists. I have learned that sand is good and clay and fertilier bad. That mght mean more good coins from the South of France, more disappointments from the South of England, if detectoring weren't a common and normal hobby in Britain and illegal in France. In short, too many imponderables.

Peter

[Rangnath]

 Thanks Peter. I think that answers my question. 
richie