Author Topic: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975  (Read 9908 times)

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Offline Prosit

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 03:19:12 PM »
Second part.   If the fakes really do exist and lots of them and no one can tell the difference...wouldn't the proper conclusion to draw be that no expert has examined an actual original?  All the coins examined by experts are the fakes which is why no differences are noted?

Dale

Offline <k>

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 03:27:00 PM »
These coins never reached Mozambique and were sent to Eastern Germany to shred them in three different factories in Hettstedt. Many workers took a handful of them home.

One seller from that region sold some years ago a complete unc set to a Chinese buyer, who some weeks later offered hundreds of complete sets ...  >:(


So that is Afrasi's story, Dale, but you're right, it would be interesting to know its source.
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Offline Afrasi

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 11:27:29 PM »
Source is the seller.

Offline andyg

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 11:37:34 PM »
that might actually mean that the Chinese buyer managed to acquire some elsewhere though, there are deceptive fakes out there I agree, but absolutely perfect fakes that cannot be told apart?

I agree a lot of Libya coins (1979) seem to have come out of China also, but these are quite a low value (and always have been) so I wonder if it would be worthwhile forging these.  You'd be better off forging UK £1 coins or Swiss 5 Francs. ~ Even with the best technology available in the UK we still can't manage decent forgeries of £1 coins!
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Prosit

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 11:44:38 PM »
When it comes to African coins I certainly have no reason to doubt Afrasi's conclusions.  Still, it seems to me, that if a fake and an original are examined side by side, there should be a way to tell the difference.  I still think the problem may lie with the lack of sufficient originals to compare with.

Well, what I am sure of is that I don't know anything about it.  Just curious is all.

Dale

Offline natko

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2011, 11:16:14 PM »
It's very unpleasant find about forgeries, now, when I purchased 1 metica and 20 cent coins for 150 euros. I miss two of them now. I still believe it's some catch, at least with original dies, so nobody can ever tell the difference.

They were cheapest 4-5 years ago, I saw at least twice sets for about 100 dollars on ebay. I bought first, 1 centimo for maybe 30 dollars in 1999 or 2000 and it was first I personally saw on the internet. Price has dropped after, but then rose quite much again now, as actually whole numismatics. That's why I wanted to finally complete it.

Didn't know also for Libyan 1979 set, I've got few sure originals in VF-XF and they're, as Afrasi said, exact as the UNC pieces bought recently. From weight to everything...just checked.

It is not scarce in our hobby, however that original dies are used later for rare coins. Good example is Yugoslavian pattern of 25 para, 1 and 10 dinara 1979 that even have original mintages od 15-20 stated in Krause. I own all and they are sometimes available in local auctions for not more than 100 euros each. first examples, sold in 80s were costing about 2000 DM, which, I would be free to compare with at least 2000 euros today.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 11:30:26 PM by natko »

Offline andyg

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2011, 11:31:32 PM »
It's very unpleasant find about forgeries, now, when I purchased 1 metica and 20 cent coins for 150 euros. I miss two of them now. I still believe it's some catch, at least with original dies, so nobody can ever tell the difference.

They were cheapest 4-5 years ago, I saw at least twice sets for about 100 dollars on ebay. I bought first, 1 centimo for maybe 30 dollars in 1999 or 2000 and it was first I personally saw on the internet. Price has dropped then rose a much again.

Didn't know also for Libyan 1979 set, I've got few sure originals in VF-XF and they're, as Afrasi said, exact as the UNC pieces bought recently. From weight to everything...just checked.

It is not scarce in our hobby, however that original dies are used later for rare coins. Good example is Yugoslavian pattern of 25 para, 1 and 10 dinara 1979 that even have original mintages od 15-20 stated in Krause. I own all and they are sometimes available in local auctions for not more than 100 euros each. first examples, sold in 80s were costing about 2000 DM, which, I would be free to compare with at least 2000 euros today.



I think Mr. Afrasi and myself agreed to differ on this one - I'm not aware of any fakes of the Mozambique coins that are as good as the originals.  Also supplies seem to have dried up again, which if they were fakes I would expect more to appear in a constant trickle.

The Libyan set I think it is likely that it was re-issued with frozen dates after 1979.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline africancoins

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2011, 12:14:02 AM »
I agree with Andy for 1975 and 1979..... those Libya 1979 were frozen dates - easiest to be sure of for the 50 and 100 Dirhams.

As for Mozambique - I really hope one day we can find a definite answer regarding those pieces that appeared later - as Andy says the supply ended - another similar point is that if this series had been copied in quantity then surely a few other sets would have been done too (not too easy to think which others would be worth doing though but there are some....).

Also wouldn't the seven-side shape (as per British 50 Pence) for the 2.50M present a few problems for anyone making copies of high grade ?

Back to Afrasi's explanation in the first post....  perhaps the Chinese buyer decided to put a lot of effort into finding someone in Germany full sets - with or without help from the first German source.

I remember a Chinese person telling me he had completed this set for someone - just over 10 years ago. He knew of the possibly melting of these in Germany and mentioned only a few of his set having come from Germany. He believed the availability in Germany at that time to be related to the possible melting in Germany.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Offline natko

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 01:41:20 PM »
As of Mozambique, there are numerous possibilities that support Afrasi's story. As an expert in African coins his words are to be trusted and his worries taken into consideration for sure.

But I also think it's unlikely to make 100% exact copies from original coins, although from what reason exactly I don't know.

Somebody could have purchased original dies (I don't know the circumstances around the closing of Birmingham mint) produce some sets or individual coins and smartly sell it.

Somebody could have purchased many original coins from Germany or Birmingham itself.

There are also some other stories for sure that could support the story of individual that Afrasi know.

My seller got the the following info on several 1 meticas the had(couldn't get pictures): 1 Metica, no difference in leaves, but if you see all UNC coins you expect them to be all same detailed, instead one has bark more defined than others but perhaps less in some other points etc. so at the end none looks really MS65, like the other coins do. The 2,5 quotes very high, but in my experience the tougher coin of the set is the 50 centimos, even if when you find you may pay it less than the other coin.

that might even be taken as evidence of copying, but I think we all know that in minting several million pieces dies have to be changed and weakened, especially for a contract mint, who never care too much about the quality.

Offline Harald

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2011, 08:50:13 PM »
The 1975 coins were produced officially, based on a law of 21 June 1975 which authorised the Central Bank to produce coins and banknotes.
However, the currency reform planned for mid 1976 (possible date 26 June 1976, unconfirmed) was never carried out and the Escudo continued to circulate until 1980. Probably due to the civil war.

Not much of a mistery so far, occasionally a currency reform gets stuck in the middle  ;D

What is more mysterious, how could the authorities come up with an incorrect name? Or was it the mint, which has turned "metical"
into "metica"? The word is derived from the Arabic weight unit "mithqal", so the L cannot be dismissed.

cheers
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Harald
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Offline Afrasi

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2011, 09:17:11 PM »
The letter "L" is a weak one in many languages. The Portuguese language don't loves it, too. So the Spanish Reales converted to Reais and Reis.
African Brazilians for example spell the word "Brazil" like "Brazeeoo" with a very short "oo". There is no more any "L" to hear.
In Mocambique the "L" - may be - was lost in the living language, too. Nobody remembered the derivation from "mithqal" and so ...

Offline Harald

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Re: Mystery Mozambican Coins of 1975
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2011, 09:13:11 PM »
In 1980 they found the L again ...  ;)
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