Author Topic: UK national transport tokens  (Read 42413 times)

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Offline africancoins

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2010, 10:48:47 PM »
I have some more info on this topic...

Most of the pieces were made by The Birmingham Mint - though not the latest as pieces as that mint closed a few years or so ago.

The other day I got a 2005 dated 1 Pound that is generally as per the 2003 1 Pound showed earlier.

The other day I also got a 50 Pence in the usual size but with the reverse like that on the 1 Pound tokens - I think I had already seen such a piece on ebay.

This current ebay lot is apparently of a bag full of the 3p tokens but with "TOKEN ORGANISATION" (so seemingly before the company "National Transport Tokens")...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400153876571

I have one or two bags but I think they each say "NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKENS".

I have seen wrapped (brown) paper rolls of the earlier 10p token type..... seemingly rolls of 50 pieces.

Finally.. another mint had some involvement with the production of the zodiac series 10p types. Perhaps figleaf can see a difference with some of his pieces ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Offline africancoins

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2010, 09:54:17 PM »
Here's a scan of a token bag that I did a few years ago.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2010, 01:46:15 AM »
Thanks to Akbar Andy, I now have some more tokens to share. Here is the first. The Ebley mill, once a woolen cloth factory, is now in Stroud. It is the seat of the Stroud district council, a lower government. The reverse is like the other 50p tokens.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:34:52 PM by Figleaf »
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2010, 01:52:02 AM »
Another new guy on the block is a 10p, like the first one in reply#9, but only 21.5 mm and 1.1 grammes. Both sides are the same.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 03:24:11 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2010, 11:59:20 PM »
One wonders with the impending cuts (around 25 to 40%) to the UK concessionary fares budget how much longer these small local authorities will continue to go their own way. 

Bad form to quote oneself, sorry,
but I've answered my own question without realising it.
From April 2010 money for concessionary fares will no longer go to the district authorities - it will instead be diverted to county councils or unitary authorities (middle tier of government instead of lower tier) to save costs.  Therefore unless Wokingham is unitary (I don't think it is) they will no longer have authority to have their own concessionary fares system.  However, thats the idea - it remains to be seen what happens on the ground.

As to why Wokingham issue their own tokens, two reasons I can think of,
tokens have expiry (unlike National tokens) so can be written off at the end of the year.
tokens can only be used in Wokingham, therefore reducing uptake.

National tokens on the other hand are purchased by the LA (local authority) from National tokens Ltd, up front then given out to concessionary passengers who can use them all over the UK - so with these tokens, unlike the LA tokens there are no redemption costs to the LA.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 01:33:22 AM by andyg »
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2010, 02:12:04 PM »
As to why Wokingham issue their own tokens, two reasons I can think of,
tokens have expiry (unlike National tokens) so can be written off at the end of the year.
tokens can only be used in Wokingham, therefore reducing uptake.

This is unfortunately possible. I call it "manager thinking": the concessionary fares are a cost, so let's limit its usefulness to save cost. I would have thought that a social program that is not used is a failure and that the real challenge is not how to keep legit beneficiaries away, but how to make sure the non-legit have no acces to the programme. See also my rant here. I wonder when we'll see the first hospital where the managers have fired all the doctors and nurses and the only cost remaining is their own salary.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 02:54:57 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2010, 02:18:56 PM »
On to better things. I enjoyed the above discussion on the time frame of the tokens. In that light, this must be another precursor of the national system. North West (England) is pretty vague, but in my mind it includes Carlisle. So is this a halfway house between a local token and a national token?

The token is 1.5 gram, 24.8 mm. The denomination is somewhat weird in a decimal system (unless you are Russian or Bulgarian.) Was it due to the fare system, pre-decimal, or is it good for three zones (no d or p)?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:38:43 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2010, 02:22:31 PM »
This token is just one step away from a national token. Note the similarity in style with the previous post (more on that in my next post). this one is 21.4 mm and 1.1grammes. Again, pence or zones?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:39:39 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2010, 02:31:05 PM »
And here the two last types, same size, same hole, same decoration, same finely reeded edge, but now with the inscription NATIONAL.

BTW, there is no reason why only my tokens should figure in this thread. If you have types not featured yet, please add them.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:40:50 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2010, 07:53:55 PM »
This is unfortunately possible. I call it "manager thinking": the concessionary fares are a cost, so let's limit its usefulness to save cost.

The National tokens are "concessionary" tokens, but perhaps the full meaning of concessionary is not immediately apparent, they can be given to the elderly, the disabled and the unemployed. Again different districts have different rules.

I do not know why the North West token (which includes Manchester and Liverpool) is inscribed "Token 2" or "Token 3"
Does anyone have a "Token 1"?

Paul - you quote the first tokens being in 1973 - I'd be interested to know more about this when you have time.

There is also another type of 20p not illustrated so far, as I don't collect them I don't have one to post!
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline africancoins

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2010, 10:27:52 PM »
My "1973" date for first issue is from an article in "Token Corresponding Society Bulletin" Vol 5 No.11. A now past editor of that publication sent me the text in an e-mail in April 2000. The author of the article gives thanks to two named members/ex-members of senior management of NTT.

The "NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN" issues of 1973 were just a "2" and a "3" (obviously decimal pence).
The only "PUBLIC TRANSPORT TOKEN" issues were a "2" and a "3". These were also first issued in 1973.
The only "NORTH WEST PUBLIC TRANSPORT TOKEN" issues were a "2" and a "3". These were first issued in July 1971. 
All "2" and "3" pieces for the above went out of use around the mid-1980s.

The article lists the MCT and the SELNEC tokens (neither type having a denomination) as the predecessor pieces to the above. These two are a bit harder to find - but still cheap. I have one of each somewhere and will do images when normal image posting starts working again.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2010, 11:04:26 PM »
Thanks Paul. That helps. The 3 remains an odd denomination, so I suppose it was dictated by fare setting, e.g. the 3 could be used to complement the 2 pence to 5 pence.

Picture from my collection added. Both sides are the same. Voice assigns this token to Manchester. SELNEC is South-East Lancashire North-east Cheshire.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 11:37:26 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2010, 11:08:51 PM »
I have a fare chart at work from the old NBC (National Bus Company), fares were allocated by distance - I can't remember the per mile charge - it wasn't much.  If I remember tomorrow I will have a look....
(I'm only at work till lunchtime, then the pub so I may not have time ;D)
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Offline Prosit

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2011, 03:07:20 AM »
Pretty big for 5p.  Aluminum, 27.5mm  +/-

Dale

Offline Figleaf

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Re: UK national transport tokens
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2011, 10:27:11 PM »
Here is the latest addition to this great fun series: 20p, 7-sided, aluminium, 1.5 grams and 24.7 mm., showing a double decker closed top bus dated 1920 (the type was actually produced 1919-1921). Detail: the ad on the front is for National Transport Tokens. Can't read the ads on the side.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.