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Cartaux - engraver

Started by africancoins, March 21, 2010, 01:43:10 AM

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africancoins

I have quite a number of old French tokens that include a small triangular mark. There would seem to be a few other different ones. I never really worked anything out about them - but with this piece - a recent acquisition - the meaning seems to be explained. The piece includes the name "PAUL FISCH" in tiny lettering and the raised triangle has incuse on it a monogram formed from a "P" (back-to-front) and an "F".

Does any know the meaning for any others ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Figleaf

Surprise! He's not French. Forrer says:

FISCH. PAUL (Belg.). Contemporary Medallist, residing at Brussels. He presented fourteen medals engraved by him to the Belgian Numismatic Society on July 2, 1899. He also undertook to engrave the jetons for this Society from 1899 to 1902. His Portrait-medal of Houzeau de Lehaic is one of his best works; he also engraved: Portrait-medal of Jules de Burlet, 1899; - Belgian Federation of Gymnasts, 1895; - Exhibition of Ghent, 1899.

I have noticed the triangle also and on French tokens, but without the PF monogram. I wouldn't connect all of them automatically with Fisch.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

africancoins

I had a look and managed to find about 10 other "triangled" pieces in my collection - all tokens of types generally similar type to the "PAUL FISCH" piece. The 10 all have "FC" with something round and solid (not outlined) above all in the triangle. About 3 of these 10 additional have small "CARTAUX" on one side - I guess you will have heard of this name "CARTAUX".

It seems I have no other little symbols on this sort of "French" token in my collection.

On this page...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/plandusite.html

which I searching pointed me to, put I had seen before...

I found more tokens with the "FC" triangle, some of these with "CARTAUX". In some places Cartaux of Paris is stated as maker.

I also found tiny lettering "E. KATZ" on the token in this image...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/p/jeton73.html    (from the section "Jetons à consommer - 2")

it says "Katz, Rue Vieille du Temple, Paris" was the maker.

Then to confuse things a little about the token shown at...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/p/jeton594.html    (from the section "Jetons à consommer - 6")

has the "FC" triangle on one side and "E. KATZ" on the other. The engraver is said to be "E. KATZ".

On last thing from the http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/plandusite.html page is the token at...

http://www.jetons-monnaie.net/p/jeton131.html    (from the section "Jetons à consommer - 2")

This shows a 20c token with "ZIMBERLIN" in tiny lettering on one side plus a rectangular symbol on both sides - these would seem to be a third maker's mark.

Surely the Belgian could design/make a token type for France. Two of my pieces with the "FC" triangle inlcude English legends and a British denomination... perhaps I should post pictures of them.

By the way - the "PAUL FISCH" piece just has bordering plus standard font text on the non-illustrated side.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

africancoins

Here is an image (both sides) of one of the British pieces I have that is "by" Cartaux.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Figleaf

#4
Good fun penny token, Paul. Do you know what it was used for?

Like you, I read the initials here as FC, rather than PF. That excludes Paul Fisch. I first thought you were saying Cartaux was manufacturing these pieces, but am now wondering if you mean that the C in FC stands for Cartaux?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

africancoins

It all seems that the "C" in "FC" in the triangle is for "CARTAUX"....  so what is the "F" for ?

I tried to find out about the "F"...  I did not find an answer, just some mention (not quite definite - so no link) that this Cartaux did have a first name starting with "F".

The Monarch Auto Co and the "PF" piece are almost the same size - both would have been for OLD machine tokens.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

andyg

Is this the same Monarch Auto Company I wonder....
Can't find any UK based companies, just this US based one.

africancoins

The thing to remember is that these tokens are rather old... 1910's/1920's/1930's.

There are some pieces with "MONARCH AUTO CO" and others styled a little differently with "MONARCH AUTOMATIC CO" - as though perhaps these two sorts are either from a slightly different period or a slightly different company.

I have a "MONARCH AUTOMATIC CO" token that also has place name "NORTHAMPTON" in the main legends.

The page...

http://www.pennymachines.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1391&view=previous

shows (in the first user image) a plate on a machine belonging to "MONARCH AUTOMATIC CO" of Northampton. No connection is made with the U.S. (although there was at some stage a lot of importation of U.S. made amusement machines into England). The English/French/German companies were game makers - they made electro-mechanical games with simple token acceptance.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

andyg

The French legend on the top piece 'A Consommer' (to consume) doesn't really go with the amusement machine theme.  Is the UK 1d piece the same specifications as the French piece?

Interesting to note that the US company I linked to have been existence since 1903 and to this day produce tokens for vending / laundry machines.

africancoins

The tokens I have shown are very similar in size - about 18mm in diameter.

The French "consommer" seems to be about eating/drinking.

Other similar British pieces include "TO BE SPENT IN THE HOUSE" ... sort of... to be spent on things you can consume on the premises ("house" being pub, club or other public place with amusements)...  so in this sense this is a similar legend to that seen on many French pieces.

The penny machines link mentioned ALLWIN machines - these were a game and there are many small tokens with the main legend "ALLWIN" - though I have not seen any of them with a triangular mark. From a few other bits in the linked page - it would seem these tokens were used to operate the games and as money for the winnings/prizes.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Figleaf

Mmm. Cartaux is in the first part of Forrer. The only part I have been unable to download as pdf. Murphy's law. This is from an online copy:

CARTAUX, F. (French). Contemporary Medallist, residing at Paris. His name appears on a medal struck in 1889 to commemorate the " Fete des Vignerons " at Vevey, and on an advertising jeton of M. C. Defailly of Geneva, 1896. He also struck a medal to commemorate the 5oth Anniversary of the Republic of Neuchitel, 1898, and several Portrait-medals and badges of President Kruger, 1900. BIBLIOGRAPHY. - Revue suisse de Numismatique. 1892, p. 187; 1898, p. i86. - Stroehiin et Dr Lade, Catalogue de deux collections importantes de Monnaies et Me'dailles suisses, novembre 1898.

I think you may safely assume that FC stands for F. Cartaux. Cartaux seems to have strong connections with Switzerland, but Forrer calls him French. I estimate that the piece dates from 1914-1923. This is the date range of a long series of French emergency tokens.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

andyg

I have some difficulty with the idea that a French medallist would sign that Monach Auto piece, if it was mine I'd not want anything to do with it....

africancoins

I have done a few more images.

The first piece is silvered-brass...
Obverse - A CONSOMMER 20 (Centimes) and the "FC" triangle
Reverse - a harp centrally with DÉPOSE and the "FC" triangle

The second piece is brass...
Obverse - 2D TO BE SPENT IN THE HOUSE with two dot spacers
Reverse - a harp centrally with DÉPOSE and the "FC" triangle

The reverses are almost a match - it seems they just differ in the relative positions of harp, DÉPOSE and the "FC" triangle.

The two tokens are very much the same size.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

Figleaf

Fascinating pieces. Thanks. Would the harp not indicate that they were meant for the Irish market?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

andyg

I'd imagine that you specified what you wanted on one side of the token, whilst to save costs you could have a generic design on the other.  Odd the Irish harp side has the 'A Consommer' on the reverse, which is definately not Irish.