Lunavada, KM 10, paisa VS 1942 (1892 AD), overstrike

[Rangnath]

You are so good at this Peter. Thanks for the info.
richie

[Salvete]

Hello, Peter,
  Everything you say is possible and very believable in theory.  The open hand die may have been laid out like wallpaper (maybe 2x2 or 3x3 in a square?), with a continuous pattern, so that even if the coins are cut apart 'off-centre' the design will still be on the flan - somewhere.  Some Sunth coins also offer that possibility, I think.  The all-over pattern of 'solar symbols' could easily have been made like that, or be a 'table-top' on which a number of blanks could be laid all at once, and struck in succession by an ordinary upper die.  The possibilities are endless.  The only real problem I have with it is that no such dies have ever been reported, to my knowledge.
  Hot-striking was used in many places to make a bold impression easier with lighter blows of the hammer, and was also common in Europe in some periods (and presumably elsewhere) where molten blobs were dripped onto a surface and struck while still hot (don't ask me how they controlled weight of blob!).  You are perfectly correct that the rounded appearance of raised bits of the design in the Lunavada coins would suggest hot strike as a possibility.  We are agreed that it might have been done at Lunavada, but until such a die is found and reported, we must reserve judgement, unfortunately.  I am told that hot strike increased the chance of bits of metal breaking off and clogging narrow bits of the design in the die itself, and there is ample evidence that this might have been occurring with the open-hand dies.  That or air bubbles.  But we're not there yet!
Barry

[MORGENSTERNN]

Hello
I also think that Lunavada/Sunth/Rampur coins have been strucked with multiple die pattern.
There is some evidences on coins I got and I think that you also can observe them on other coins.

1- Some coins presents on their egdge a smooth part then a rough part as they have been partialy cut then tear out. In my opinion that could happen if the flan is prepared like a chocolate tablet smooth part is the "precut" a delimitation of each coin then they tear appart when stroke by the strenght of the hammer. Those coins are almost perfectly square and I think they are "first strike" coins.
2- Then after stoke the multiple coins dies I think that the same pattern was use to overstrike older or foreign coins maybe several each time that could explain the persistance of host design on overtucked coins (differences of thickness on each coins struck together) I call those coins "second strike".
3- Some rare examples from Lunavada shows 2 time the main design I remember have seen a paisa with 2 half part of lion and I got a paisa with 2 lotus flower. Those coins and all the overstrucked coins I know are also "second strike" (some "first stike" have been stroke again)
4- On most "second strike" of Lunavada and Rampur coins you also can observe "delimitation lines" that could be used to make easier the separation of multiple coins flans during the "first strike". 

On the following pictures you can observe the edges of "first strike" coins with smooth and rough part (paisa from Lunavada KM10 and Sunth KM6) a Lunavada paisa with 2 lotus flowers and an overstrucked example showing good preservation of host and "delimitation lines".

[asm]

The secrets of this would be out by December ..........

Amit

PS: The coins were struck on a single large blank (more in the catalogue) which was later manually cut using a Chisel & Hammer. Weight was of prime importance and whether the full image was seen or half did not matter........ all that mattered was just the final weight. If the coin weighed a bit more, the extra metal was chipped of the edge............

[MORGENSTERNN]

Ok
That will explain why I got a katar paisa with the beginning of a cut (cisel print) not ended with hammer because at the wrong place
see below

[asm]

MORGENSTERNN,
The first coin you post is surely Lunavada (Lion VS 1949of Vakhatsinhji) over-strike on Sunth.
The second one is Lunavada (open hand on pedestal - date VS (19)38 over struck later with the flower) with the name of the ruler Vakhatsinh ji.
The last image (please post one taken directly from the top & with the reverse) is most likely a Katar issued by Dalelsinh ji.

Amit

[MORGENSTERNN]

Here picture of the reverse and 2 more Lunavada Katar type
2 first got same print, thrid is quite different but seems to belong to the same type

[MORGENSTERNN]

Hello first coin are 2 different coins one from Lunavada the other from Sunth
Here pictures of those coins

[asm]

2 first got same print, thrid is quite different but seems to belong to the same type

Congratulations..................you have hit a jackpot. The third one is not Lunavada.......................it is Baria...........................A rather difficult to find and expensive coin.

Amit

[MORGENSTERNN]

Congratulations..................you have hit a jackpot. The third one is not Lunavada.......................it is Baria...........................A rather difficult to find and expensive coin.

Amit

Hello
In your book I can't find any Baria paisa with Katar that match with my coin
It seems to be a Lunavada one PM#73
So what is your final opinion ?

[RG]

Hi all,
Won and added these two coins to my collection in a recent auction. Awaiting delivery. The picture and description belongs to auction catalogue.
My question is that, they say it is unlisted type.
Is there really any catalogue reference for these two coins? Any help from an expert is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

In the first coin, I see a protrusion(stem) from the flower design at 3'O clock position. However the half paisa is not showing that? So is there more than one type of flower design observed in this series?

[Manzikert]

The rectangular one was struck with the die at 90 degrees clockwise to the round one, so the 'stem' of the flower is going downwards on the rectangle one, and you can just see half of it as a diagonal line to the right under the flower. There is just the one type of flower, the different flan has distorted one's view of it.

Alan

[RG]

The rectangular one was struck with the die at 90 degrees clockwise to the round one, so the 'stem' of the flower is going downwards on the rectangle one, and you can just see half of it as a diagonal line to the right under the flower. There is just the one type of flower, the different flan has distorted one's view of it.

Alan

Thank you very much for the confirmation. 

[mkm1968]

In your book I can't find any Baria paisa with Katar that match with my coin
It seems to be a Lunavada one PM#73
So what is your final opinion ?

I will give an example from the Zeno database with a more complete image on the sides of the coin

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=210444

To determine the denomination, you need the weight of the coin...

[MORGENSTERNN]

I will give an example from the Zeno database with a more complete image on the sides of the coin

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=210444

To determine the denomination, you need the weight of the coin...

Weight is 7.29g