Author Topic: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks  (Read 3476 times)

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Offline RVCOINS

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Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« on: January 21, 2010, 07:25:28 PM »
Hi Guys,

This european coin with several countermarks

Does anyone knows where it comes from

Thanks
Roland

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 10:18:09 PM »
The host piece is a Dutch jeton (1508 or 1515?). The legend on one side is NOSCE IPSVM ET RESPICE FINEM (know yourself; think of the end), a warning against stealing. The legend on the other side is SOLA MISERIA CARET INVIDIA - misery alone is without envy.

I found a description without illustration on page 74, under number 219 of this book

Peter
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:42:15 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

constanius

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 11:10:59 PM »
Going with the 'warning against stealing' MISERIA can also mean poverty, so, 'poverty alone is without envy'.  So, by my admittedly twisted logic, 'if you are going to steal, steal from a rich man'.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 11:24:02 PM »
Mmm. The bean counters who used these jetons actually worked for the rich and super rich. You'd be at the minimum a rich merchant or a nobleman with a large estate to employ bookkeepers. How about a message like "if you steal, you'll get into trouble and no one will envy you, while now you have a job and regular income."

Peter
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Offline lusomosa

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 09:43:31 AM »
With disregard for the political reasons behind the Dutch jetons, I do agree with constanius : Miseria does better translate into poverty .
The countermarks are completely unknown to me  :-[

LP

Offline asm

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 10:00:46 AM »
With disregard for the political reasons behind the Dutch jetons, I do agree with constanius : Miseria does better translate into poverty .
The countermarks are completely unknown to me  :-[
LP
Misery would better translate as suffering, as in 'he is living a miserable life'....

......MISERIA can also mean poverty, so, 'poverty alone is without envy'.
With the above defination in mind, I would read it as 'Suffering alone is without envy'.
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline rechenpfennig

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 05:51:58 PM »
Several jetons in the Netherlands were made with these legends, the first in 1507/1508, in 1515 and 1520. It seems that in later years they used earlier dies. See descriptions form Dugniolle. Rolands seems to be a mule of D 898 and D 1051.
The pictures are very similar to D 86/898.
The description of Van Orden 219 is different.

About the marks: never seen before and no idea where ythey are from or what they mean.

Freek
I collect (Nuremberg) counters and write articles about them.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 07:30:23 PM »
That clears things up very nicely. On the obverse the crowned symbols of Burgundy: a fire iron, a "Burgundy cross" and the order of the golden fleece, on the reverse THS, which, I suspect, should have been IHS (Jesus) - see description of D 1015.

My speculation is that a Northern Dutchmen didn't like the Burgundy symbols, since they represented the hated Habsburgs in the South. However, he didn't want to throw away a good counter, so he obliterated the enemy symbols. I am not sure what the initials T  G and T   D stand for, but they apparently offended our thrifty hammerer also.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline rechenpfennig

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2010, 12:52:33 PM »
Quote
My speculation is that a Northern Dutchmen didn't like the Burgundy symbols
These jetons are made in official minthouses in the Southern Netherlands. The TD and TG are the initials of people which
worked in that houses as officials.
Quote
THS, which, I suspect, should have been IHS (Jesus)
I don not agree this opinion, Peter, the jetonmakers (almost) never made mistakes with legends - there are several different dies all with THS.`
IHS is the abbreviation of In Hoc Signo (Vinces)- a reference to the cross of Jesus Christ - in this sign we will overcome/conquer a typical roman catholic slogan. On jetons from the Netherlands this slogan never was used as legend.....
It would be interesting to know what Van Mieris' says about THS. When I'm in the Geldmuseum Utrecht I will have a look and let you know.
Freek
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 07:08:36 PM by rechenpfennig »
I collect (Nuremberg) counters and write articles about them.

Offline RVCOINS

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2010, 04:15:38 PM »
Hi Peter en Freek,

Thanks so far.

The only question left, why these countermarks, It looks like chinese ?!

Another question, are the jetons also used as payment in countries outside europe?

Roland

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Copper Unknow Coin with several countermarks
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2010, 05:23:27 PM »
Jetons were not used in payment. They were used on calculating boards, as checkers pieces in other games, to keep scores in games, as amulets, decorations and as sacrificial piece under ship's masts or the threshold of new houses.

There were strict regulations against their use as money. They had to be of a size different from the coins they were "inspired by", they had to have dissimilar inscriptions and the name of the maker had to be on the counter. You may imagine how upsetting a local government would have been very dangerous for the counter sellers or even the counter makers.

The only place outside Europe where the were used is the US. However, this may be partly or totally due to coin dealers' fantasy and knowledge that anything they dare label "Americana" sells better. Your counterstamps are certainly not Asiatic. My best guess is that they were made by a punch, used to decorate silverware. You may want to check this with the silver and clock museum in Schoonhoven.

Peter

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.