Old Irish counterstamp

Started by brandm24, April 07, 2023, 01:18:27 PM

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brandm24

I've known of these JB/1811 counterstamps for a long time and have just recently acquired one. Despite been fairly common at about 200 documented, they're rarely available to collectors. This puts into question, at least for me, how accurate the estimate is. Apparently, a small hoard was "discovered" in the 1970s but I've never seen a single account of where they were found, who found them, or how they were dispersed, if at all. My experience leads me to believe there are far fewer extant than are claimed.

In any case, this issue is unattributed though listed in Brunk (B-52) in his 2003 reference. British researcher Michael Dolley (1973) opines that they were used as merchant tokens c 1830 and the 1811 date is the founding date of the company. This sounds reasonable to me as the 1806 Hibernia farthings that host nearly all of the known examples, including mine, were demonetized in 1826. Many of them were shipped to England and sold as scrap. At that point other merchants may have used the old tokens and validated them by stamping their own initials. Many have such stamps added.

Although the date 1811 is difficult to see because of design clutter, it's been validated on other better struck examples. Other than those stamped on 1806 Hibernia farthings, only 4 examples are known on other coins. They include one on a 1797 English Cartwheel penny, two on 1806 English farthings, and a single example on a 1744 Hibernia farthing.

As always, your comments are appreciated.

BruceJB 1.jpgJB Closeup.jpg 

 
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JohnI

Bruce;

The truck system was used in Ireland and it is possible that the token is a truck token. This could help explain a hoard being found as when they were no longer of use they could have been abandoned in the estate office or mill office - this has been report for some non-descript truck tokens on Mull. The value of the token could have been a half day's work or a day's work,so using old worn halfpennies would not have been unusual.

Some of the cotton mills of Scotland issued coutermarked dollars with a stated value. They also issued countermarked worn halfpennies with no value stated on the contermark. The countermarked halfpennies might have been used as halfpennies but may also have been used as truck tokens when the coutermarked dollars became illegal.

I would say your token is proably from a mill and ties in with the Scottish countermarked halfpennies. If so, then the date on the token is probably the date the die was cut.


Regards;



John


brandm24

I'm glad you responded to my post and offered some real possibilities. The more I think about it the more I like the possibility of it being a mill token. It seems to fit well with the Scottish halfpenny countermarks you speak of.

By the way, these JB coins are apparently listed in Scott as 123.146. I don't have the reference and wonder if you do and would be able to look it up for me. I can't believe I still don't have a copy after collecting this kind of material for so many years. :)

Many thanks, John.

Bruce
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JohnI

Bruce;

I have a copy but it will be next weekend before I have access to it. I will look it up then.



Regards;


John


brandm24

Thank you so much, John.

Bruce
Always Faithful

brandm24

John, you peaked my interest with your suggestion that my piece might be a Scottish mill token or even a truck token so I did some research.

Nothing in particular stood out to me but I came across many images of communion tokens. This is a real stretch I know, but could it possibly be a communion token? It seems very unlikely to me but thought I'd ask the expert.

Thanks
Bruce
Always Faithful

JohnI

Bruce;

I missed your reply. I have looked in Scott and was going to type in what it said, assuming that it was a short "don't know" bit of text, but it is quite extensive. I have had to make it a pdf to make it small enough to upload and still be clear.

Gavin Scott piece on JB countermark.pdf

The article is proposing the use as truck tickets, the question is where. I would favour Ireland as the area of manufacture/use if they are mainly found on irish farthings - if the farthings were still being actively used in Ireland as suggested long after being officially demonitized, it doesn't make sense to sell them at below face value as scrap and transport them to England.

It is unlikely that they are Scottish church tokens. These are usually some variation of pewter/white metal. There are some early bracteate brass ones from the highlands that were probably made about the same time as the highland bracteate brass tokens. There are some brass/ copper communion tokens, mainly from about 1850 onwards but these are all much better made than the primitive white metal/pewter ones made up to about 1820 - they tend to have the date, minister and full church name on them.

Primitive church tokens were made in Ireland also. However most primitive communion tokens of Scotland and Ireland would have M or Mr before the minister's initials or would have initials for the church. With no M or Mr you would be looking for a parish that matches the initials JB, which seems unlikely.

I would say they are Irish truck tokens with the best options being use in a mill or a distillery.

Regards;



John

brandm24

Thanks for your reply. I thought being a possible communion token was a longshot but thought I'd ask.

I was always struck by the fact that nearly all of the host coins are Irish so your thought about it being an Irish truck token is well founded. It's such a shame that we don't know where the hoard was found. It would certainly help in a solid identification. Thanks again.

Bruce
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Figleaf

I investigated the distillery angle, thinking immediately of Bushmills. Nope. That's a place, not a last name. Next was to find more names of distilleries around 1850. Those were the golden years for Irish whiskey, but still, nothing like JB or even an initial B last name.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

JohnI

Bruce;

I have a Talisker (Isle of Skye whisky) truck token from the 1830s. This was issued by the founder, Hugh MacAskill who set up the distillery to employ people he had thrown off the their crofts for low wages, providing a source to use for the grain he was growing on land he had cleared. This and the other one are both made of white metal - the other one has the town name - Carbost. Talisker is now a famous whiskey brand but a lot of the distilleries folded due to the growth of the temperance movement. The bank took over Talisker, which is why it survived.

The clearances were not confined to the Duke of Sutherland and the 1850s. He got a bad name because he held out so long before he threw the people off the land and replaced them with sheep. The clearances happened all over the UK from about 1750 as the agricultural revolution took off in pace with the industrial revolution - they happened in the lowlands first. For example Hugh MacAskill in the 1820's/1830's was completing what the previous tenant of the Talisker estate had been busy doing. 

The Barry Woodside site mentions about 80 known distilleries in Ireland around 1830, so a lot of potential candidates and many of them starting like Talisker from clearances but many of them folding - in 1843 there were 64 with the numbers falling as the temperance movement took off.

Truck tokens were just one aspect of the clearances and the industrial squalor that people were forced into, resulting in short broken lives. New Lanark, a model vilage set up round a mill was owned by a devout christian, David Dale, who employed his son-in-law Robert Owen to run it in the 1790s. It is still celebrated as one of the best of it's time. One of the rules was "every inhabitant, whether man, woman or child, above the age of ten, capable of working, be actively engaged in some legal and useful employment". Being enlightened employers they allowed the children to work a shorter week and gave then some basic schooling, hopefully before they became almost deaf from working the machines and started to have lung failure from the work environment. New Lanark also produced white metal tokens and I have one of those. They are probably also truck tokens from the 1820's or 1830' when conditions would have been worse do to growing competition than during the good times when Robert Owen was in charge.

The village of New Lanark is now rows of houses that were refurbished about 40 years ago from an abandoned and derilict state. These houses didn't start off as houses, they were tenements. Each floor had two rooms, one per family. So what is now a house for mum, dad and maybe two kids was built by David Dale to house 6 or 8 families.

Your token, if it is a truck token, which it probably is, is a reminder of the "good old days".


Regards;



John

brandm24

Interesting story, John. I had forgotten about Barry Woodside's site which I think is still active online. It would be interesting to visit and do some research.

Bruce
Always Faithful

brandm24

One thing that still bothers me about these tokens is the rarity of seeing them offered at auctions or other venues. That's the case in my experience at least. I've known of this issue for years and have seen only a very small number offered. Although I've probably seen more, my example is one of only two that I recall coming across.

Generally, these hoards are disbursed over time and begin to appear more frequently. Apparently, the hoard was discovered in the 1970s but examples seem to have remained elusive.

Bruce 
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JohnI

Bruce;

Scott talks about the 209 pieces Michael Dolley knows about and 191 he describes. Scott also says his example makes a total of 210. You might find the Michael Dolley article from 1973 discusses 191 in a museum (the number he describes) and another 18 known, which would make no more than about 20 in private hands, so maybe 25 now if another 5 have popped up. This would tie in with what you have seen.

David Dunlop, who asked about an old communion token cleaning method, may be able to get hold of the Dolley article.


Regards;


John

JohnI

Bruce;

The two tokens I mentioned are below;

Talisker and New Lanark.jpg

The Talisker token is a daywork token and the New Lanark one looks like one too with the mill assigned (i.e Mill 2).

The system was probably that goods were obtained at the store on credit and the credit paid off with daywork tokens. So not a lot of tokens would be needed for a distillery or mill - 400 to 600 was probably all that was needed.

Regards;


John

brandm24

That explains the reason I've only coma across a few examples. The one I saw and bid on some time ago sold for a hefty premium so I was easily outbid. Surprisingly, I won this example with a low bid and only had to contend with one other bidder. I was very surprised to get it for  that price. It came from a source in the UK.

Bruce
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