Searching for crosses on Sogdian coins

Started by Pellinore, January 15, 2023, 02:25:59 PM

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Pellinore

This interesting thread led me to search my Sogdian coins for crosses. However, I found only this: two little bronze coins, each with a swastika. They are both coins with Type 6 tamghas according to Shagalov & Kuznetsov but vary in size and weight.

5689 wo.jpg

Chach, 650-850. Ruler Nirtanak. Obv. Frontal head with large earrings and glasses-like eyes, swastika to the right. Rev. Tamgha 6 with text. 20 mm, 2.18 gr. Shagalov & Kuznetsov #201.

5689a wo.jpg

Chach, 650-850. Ruler Nirtanak. Obv. Frontal head with roundish bonnet and almost invisble eyes, swastika to the right. Rev. Tamgha 6 (W) with text. 16 mm, 1.26 gr. Shagalov & Kuznetsov #204.

-- Paul

Figleaf

#1
You are quite right to call them swastikas. They are Buddhist sun symbols, not christian, let alone Nestorian.

There are some pictures of Qarakhanid coins from Sogdian mints with christian symbols, but I am also not aware of Sogdian coins with crosses.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Pellinore

Well, we make a strong difference for obvious reasons, but maybe the Sogdians didn't. You may find Chach coins with crosses in the standard catalogue of Shagalov and Kuznetsov.

Figleaf

S & K's drawings sometimes show a small simple cross (not a Nestorian cross) to the right of the portrait on coins of group 6, but they seem to be variants of the swastika you show above or a simple 8-pointed star. These small symbols fit in with the moon crown/symbol used on the coins of a number of groups.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Quant.Geek

#4
Reviving this particular thread as opposed to creating a new one as it fits the theme of this particular coin. Alexandr Naymark has read the Sogdian text as PRN / KND meaning "city of glory", and suggested that this was a local issue under a Christian ruler, in opposition to the kings of Bukhara. See Une monnaie sino-sogdienne trilingue de Boukhara by François Thierry for more information. Alas it is in French and I can't seem to translate it.

Paikend: Anonymous (ca 640-710 CE)  Æ Cash (Zeno 20199)

Obv: Bukhara tamgha Bukharatamga.png at top, Chinese 元 yuan below, Sogdian legend to left & right 2023-11-04_20-08-37.png
Rev: Cross above & below the square hole


A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

Figleaf

Thank you for that contribution, QG. Fascinating coin, that. I find the attribution to Paykend totally credible, in spite of the tamgha. However, with more than just due respect for Alexandr Naymark, I tend to think of the Nestorians as a tolerated minority, rather than an opposition. Side note: in Bukhara, in the case of jews, that tolerance lasted until well into Soviet times. Traces of that community can still be found there, but it is small and past its glory days.

As for François Thierry (an expert on Chinese numismatics) and his knowledgable article, I tested it reading straight from the screen, using Google translate's camera function. It worked perfectly. I also use this function to read paper books in Russian.

I marvel at your capacity to get unusual characters and such into your posts. The tiny picture of the Bukhara tamgha is a little marvel, but I like the Sogdian text also!

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Quant.Geek

Quote from: Figleaf on November 05, 2023, 06:56:55 AMAs for François Thierry (an expert on Chinese numismatics) and his knowledgable article, I tested it reading straight from the screen, using Google translate's camera function. It worked perfectly. I also use this function to read paper books in Russian.

I marvel at your capacity to get unusual characters and such into your posts. The tiny picture of the Bukhara tamgha is a little marvel, but I like the Sogdian text also!

I tried to upload the whole PDF into google translate, but it didn't work.  The camera trick did the job. Thank you. While Sogdian is encoded in Unicode, most people probably don't have the fonts readily available, so a picture was added. Reading the legends and analyzing the script is an added hobby, but it takes time...

Ram
A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins