Author Topic: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.  (Read 6026 times)

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translateltd

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 04:11:43 AM »
I would not be comfortable with "BU" used as a descriptor of production quality because it is in general use already as an equivalent for the old "FDC" but in reference to non-proof coins, and nothing is going to change that usage.  The point must also be borne in mind that "BU" strikes will very quickly cease to be BU if they suffer any handling or other contact damage, yet by your preferred use they would become a paradoxical "non-BU BU strike" :-)

Before this thread arose I had forgotten about the term "business strike", which appears to be a quite satisfactory equivalent (probably US in origin?) for "circulation strike".

We're still left with the task of finding a suitable, non-ambiguous term to describe non-proof collector strikes, though.  How about non-proof collector strikes? he asked, with tongue only partly in cheek ...






Offline UK Decimal +

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 10:14:47 AM »
First, my term 'Circulation standard'.   This is a version of 'circulating standard' as used by the Royal Mint.   My term should be recognisable worldwide.   I accept that 'Business' standard is used in some areas, but as there are some mints that make a 'business' out of collector coins, 'Business' could cause confusion in some cases.

I prefer not to use general terms like 'NCLT'.   By the time I've got to reading a second or even third or more page here, I've forgotten what coin is being referred to and that is why I say to quote details of the actual coin being referred to.   I think that the description given in my example would be recognisable worldwide: "UK 2009 50p 'Blue Peter', stuck to Circulation standard only, available only in presentation pack at £1.99".   This coin might, at some future time, appear on the streets.   In a topic dealing with more than one type of coin, someone might say "it's in circulation now" which would raise the question of which one is in circulation now.   Simply give the full description in every case ('UK' might not be needed in the UK boards, although if an Isle of Man issue were being discussed there, 'IoM' would be needed).   In some cases, changing the sub-heading within a topic here is useful.

There are times when we want to discuss 'collector' coins in general and that is a different matter.   But again a full coin description is usually required as an example.   I sometimes see reference to 'Braille' coins and immediately wonder which country they come from as they are not part of my subject; the full description would certainly help in such cases.   Also, as I have suggested in the past and been proved right, what might start off appearing to be purely a collector coin becomes general circulation.   Someone (or more people) jumped in and called it a collector coin from the start whereas I had already suggested that it would me a matter of 'wait and see'.

If somebody would give me a full definition of 'NCLT' which will definitely apply from the time that a coin is first advertised and stand the test of time, I might he a bit happier about using the term, but as things stand at the present I consider that the use of such a general term is unnecessary and could be confusing in a few of months time.

Yes, I appreciate that 'NCLT' has been in use for many years and I do not expect to see the term disappear overnight.   The law may not always be right but it is still the law.   I say "change the law", at least as far as these pages are concerned.

Bill.
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translateltd

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 11:14:59 AM »
Sorry if I'm starting to sound impatient by now, but what exactly is unclear about "non-circulating legal tender"?  It means commemorative "coins" (really commemorative medals/medallions issued by, or at least in the name of, a government) that are accorded "legal tender" status to make them seem more legitimate as coins than they would be if it were impossible to redeem them for their (theoretical) face value, while the fact that they are usually sold at prices in excess of their face value and that they are never intended to circulate in the first place accounts for the "non-circulating" part.  If produced any time since about the late 1960s, they're still usually junk ...






Offline Figleaf

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2010, 02:03:28 PM »
My problem with NCLT is LT. I think LT is irrelevant. Fantasy issues are not LT, but still what I would call pseudo coins. You'd have to come up with NCNLT as well and create a distinction without a difference.

That said, I think the terminology is not a big problem. As long as each understands the other, everything is fine. The real problem is how to educate newbies that not all round shiny shinies are coins as in money.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline UK Decimal +

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 03:28:39 AM »
If you think about someone slapping a name like NCLT on a commemorative coin and a few weeks later someone else reports receiving one in their change, I'm sure that you'll realise why I detest the term.   In the UK, most coins struck to Circulation quality turn up eventually.

I know that there are some types of coin that will never see the full light of day, but I still say that they can just as well be given their full description which will identify the issue in question rather than just saying that it's NCLT and sweeping it under the carpet.   If it is from Xyz Island which has only two inhabitants, then say so and let people (me) draw their (my) own conclusions.   That said, I can see no problems with saying that "the coins from Xyz Island are only pseudo-coins because there is nobody there to spend them" in the appropriate circumstances.

If it is spendable, then it is a coin.   If it is not spendable, then it must be a pseudo-coin.   Whether the writer has seen or heard of it being in circulation does not make any difference, it is still the same item.

Sorry, NCLT:-X

Bill.
Ilford, Essex, near London, England.

People look for problems and complain.   Engineers find solutions but people still complain.

Offline MS

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 07:47:43 AM »
If you think about someone slapping a name like NCLT on a commemorative coin and a few weeks later someone else reports receiving one in their change, I'm sure that you'll realise why I detest the term.   In the UK, most coins struck to Circulation quality turn up eventually.

In India, there are at least 120 commemorative coins that circulate since the late 1960s. You can see a full list in my signature. Typically NCLT commemorate "something" but it does not mean that the coin will not be released for general circulation. There are examples of both in India.

Telecommunication for example was released only in UNC/proof sets but not in business strike. Almost all other Indian commemoratives were released in UNC sets, Proof sets as well as business strikes. The UNC/Proof set typically contains one coin in a circulating value and another larger coin in the denomination of typically 100.

I dont have a problem using the terms NCLT or UNC/proof sets. For me they are the same. And any coin that was meant for circulation is a business strike for me.


Offline MS

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2010, 07:57:06 AM »
The bimetallic in this case is being sold for 150 INR,no one will spend it since it will be his/her loss.
Business strike is same as NCLT,just more sophisticated word :D

Aditya


My point is-since you can not get the Indian commemorative tenner for face value even from bank/mint/any other source,it is NOT business strike but NCLT.On the other hand,the Braille issue is business strike,though it is not possible to get it for face value ::)

Aditya

You have me totally confused over what your point is :D

Offline Bimat

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 08:05:34 AM »
Your definition of business strike is :any coin struck for the purpose of circulation and not specifically intended or aimed at collectors.
In case of the Indian tenner-it is not struck for the purpose of circulation.If it were,it would have made available at RBI for face value to anyone-not necessarily only for collectors,and you can spend it anywhere.Now,if you have bought it from Hyderabad mint for 150 INR,will you spend it to get anything?(forget that you are a collector for a moment) And even if you spend it,you will get the thing which is worth 10 INR,and NOT 150 INR,which is same as NCLT.Theoretically you can use this coin,but practically can not.

Aditya
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.

Offline MS

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2010, 08:11:12 AM »
Your definition of business strike is :any coin struck for the purpose of circulation and not specifically intended or aimed at collectors.
In case of the Indian tenner-it is not struck for the purpose of circulation.If it were,it would have made available at RBI for face value to anyone-not necessarily only for collectors,and you can spend it anywhere.Now,if you have bought it from Hyderabad mint for 150 INR,will you spend it to get anything?(forget that you are a collector for a moment) And even if you spend it,you will get the thing which is worth 10 INR,and NOT 150 INR,which is same as NCLT.Theoretically you can use this coin,but practically can not.

Aditya

The Indian tenner is an NCLT. I never called it a business strike. I mentioned that there are unsubstantiated rumors that the Indian tenner might come out as a business strike i.e in circulation with a face value and an issue value of 10 rupees. Just because a coin has been released as an NCLT it does not mean that the same coin will not come out as a business strike.

Thats why I gave the Braille coin as an example. It has been issued in a Proof/UNC set by Calcutta mint, also released by the Hyderabad mint in UNC set and also released by the Calcutta mint as a business strike. 

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2010, 09:59:22 AM »

You have me totally confused over what your point is :D


This is probably because the coin is being referred to, not by the standard of minting, but by the method of distribution (or is it the other way round?).   When both are being mentioned together, the wording has to be selective and that wording is easily confused by using general terms like 'NCLT', and in the course of this topic it seems that 'business strike' might also be taken by some as 'coins struck to Circulation standard' and others as 'not available at face value'.   My point stands; use a direct description of the coin then give additional detail about it:

"UK 2009 50p 'Blue Peter', stuck to Circulation standard only, available only in presentation pack at £1.99".   

(Full details details of the 2009 50p 'Blue Peter' coin are available from the Royal Mint website).

As someone who is not familiar with the currency of India, can I assume that a 'tenner' is 10 Rupees?   What is the face value of a 'Braille' coin?   We use similar abbreviations in the UK, but when writing here I try to avoid using them as WoC has a worldwide audiance.

Bill.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 10:07:17 AM by UK Decimal + »
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Offline Bimat

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Re: Business Strikes, NCLTs etc.
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2010, 10:22:03 AM »
As someone who is not familiar with the currency of India, can I assume that a 'tenner' is 10 Rupees?   What is the face value of a 'Braille' coin?   We use similar abbreviations in the UK, but when writing here I try to avoid using them as WoC has a worldwide audiance.
Yes,tenner is 10 Rupees.The Braille coin has denomination of two rupees.(about 2.5Pence),but it should be noted that it was being sold for a price as high as 350 INR (4.5 Pounds) when it was just released.Its price has come down in last few weeks,as its mintage was increased by Calcutta mint.

Aditya
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.