Portugal 10 reis 1838 KM#409 vs KM#470

Started by carpatic, March 29, 2022, 06:28:27 AM

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carpatic

Hi. I have aquired a 10 reis 1838 but I cannot figure out if it is KM#409 vs KM#470 according to Krause.
The description of the two looks identical to me, as well as the pictures that I have found.
Here 2 illustrative links of the two KM entries:
https://coinscatalog.net/portugal/coin-copper-10-reis-x-km-409-kingdom-milled-coinage
https://coinscatalog.net/portugal/coin-copper-10-reis-km-470-kingdom-decimal-coinage
Is there a mistake in the catalogue, or just something missing in the description?
Thanks

CannedMeat

Comparing the two images, extend the flat line at the top of the shield toward the right. The 409 image hits the A while the 470 image goes below the A.

But the two coins are from different years, so it could be a year variation and not a type variation.

The legend on the 470 looks closer to the edge, but that could be a combination of wear and cropping. (Both images have a flat top 3.)

Numista has KM# 409 but not KM# 470. (Flat top 3.)
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces35326.html

ucoin.net has both. There are die differences, but also 409 has a round top 3 while 470 has a flat top 3. (I'm not claiming that the attributions are correct.)
https://en.ucoin.net/coin/portugal-10-reis-1838/?ucid=26948564
https://en.ucoin.net/coin/portugal-10-reis-1837-1839/?tid=63539

I looked at some coin images from Portugal in that era and didn't see a pattern of flat and round top 3s, but that might be a useful area of research.


gpereira221

Acording the Alberto Gomes catalog, in 1838 there are two issues with different diammeter:
- 32 mm, with the reverse legend near the edge;
- 31 mm, with the reverse legend not closer to the edge, like the picture at numista site

Globetrotter

I've made a CR in numista about the missing km470 and at the same time this documentation

Luis Cozeto

#4
Quote from: Globetrotter on August 31, 2022, 02:58:20 PMI've made a CR in numista about the missing km470 and at the same time this documentation

As moedas de D. Maria II, X Réis de 32mm tem os carateres nominais da data 1838 diferentes, das moedas de 31 mm. Não é um erro é mesmo cunhadas de forma diferente do "3" .

The 32 mm Doña Maria II, X Réis coins uses different characters for the date 1838 than the 31 mm coins. It's not a mistake it's even coined with a differently shaped "3" .