Looking for pictures of Turkish telephone tokens

[Figleaf]

WoT now has a section on Turkish telephone tokens. I am still looking for most pictures. Can you help?

Peter

[Figleaf]

I am terminally confused by these tokens.

First, there is TTI6, described by Groenendijk, but without mention of notches. I found pictures of these tokens with one and two notches, but not without notches. To complicate matters, I found similar tokens in the same size with one notch and the legend TALAS O.i., which is a bus company. Do the tokens without notch exist? Are the tokens with notch bus tokens or telephone tokens? Taking into account that the round tokens don't fit in with the rest and that ALSA and KUMTEL were not network owners but equipment makers, I have doubts. Please check in other catalogues.

Second, Groenendijk describes a number of KUMTEL tokens with the number 433490 (TTI2, 3, 5) and one with 433490 on one side and 433491 on the other side (TTI 3b). I now have a picture of a token with 433480, the fourth digit looks struck over another number, possibly 6 and the 8 is upside down. I also have one with 433491 on both sides. Do other catalogues list these variants? Could the numbers in Groenendijk be typos?

Peter

[FosseWay]

On the piece with number ending in 0, I don't think the 4's (either of them) are overstruck on something else, or if they are, they both are.

The fifth digit I read on both as being a 9 overstruck on something else, either 8 or 6.

[eurocoin]

By far most of the pieces with 433490 that I could find, only had a figure on one side. The other side did not have a figure. So is it certain that Groenendijk mentions only 433490 pieces with that figure on both sides? That would be rather odd.



The variant 433490 on one side and 433491 on the other does exist (see image below, image not my own). This is not a typo in Groenendijk.

[eurocoin]

Also, I think you have mistakenly created your own die pair The images should be like this:
So both pieces you posted are the 433491/433490 variant.

[eurocoin]

Some further Kumtel pieces (images not my own):

Kumtel 456978 in plastic. Both sides mirrored. Apparently very rare and thought to be a trial or error.



Kumtel 456978 in plastic. One side mirrored.



Kumtel with countermark BK

[africancoins]

Perhaps the letters and numbers on those pieces with a scalloped shape are derived from something other than letter stamps and number stamps. Could they have been made using sparked eroded dies ? See, for example, the various edges to the letter "M" and how some of the numbers include small circles. If correct this would rule out "re-punching". The "re-punched" look could just be down to poor design of the numbers or poor striking or die wear etc..

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

[jezuss]

my kumtel tokens.

[Figleaf]

Brilliant stuff, gentlemen. Thank you. In inverse order:

@jezuss: does "tokens" mean you have more of them? If so, please post.

@africancoins: I am not familiar with what pieces made with spark-eroded dies look like. I have been wondering about the rounded edges on one side and sharp edges on the other side (quite clear on jezuss' photos). It points at a specific production technology, but which one?

@eurocoin. I am somewhat suspicious about the plastic pieces. I don't see what purpose they would serve, but do see how they could have been moulded easily with an impression of a metallic piece. Note the unprofessional colour mixing and funny edge.

As for the die mixing, just looking at the lighting, you seem to have a point, but the number combinations make no sense. I think all combinations of two different numbers are errors and the dies on the two sides were made with the same matrix dies, so the upside down 8 dies belong together. Also, the photos are of one piece in clad steel, the other in aluminium. Groenendijk has it only in aluminium. That said, I don't feel good about my die combinations either and won't use them in WoT until they are confirmed. I have no expertise on these tokens, so I must rely on the expertise of cataloguers until otherwise proven.

Thank you for the photo of the 90/91 and the BK token. Can you tell me where you found them, so I can tackle the rights issue?

With that, my questions are still open. Can anyone post the entry in Smith & Smith for Turkish bus tokens that are round with a notch?

Peter

[jezuss]

22.6 mm

[Figleaf]

@jezuss. Fun! I'll add the 52er as a variety instead of the note on the date.

With the help of jezuss, I figured out the production process. The flans were punched out of metal strips, which explains the rounded edge on one side and the sharp edge on the other side as well as the pieces with one or two blank sides. Next, the sides were stamped one by one. The flans were not stamped before cutting the dies and the two sides were not stamped at the same time, because they have random die rotation.

This means that flans left unstamped or stamped on one side are really errors, not types or varieties, there may be other errors out there, but it is not possible to assign the unstamped tokens to a particular type.

Peter

[africancoins]

Regarding....

>>
I am not familiar with what pieces made with spark-eroded dies look like. I have been wondering about the rounded edges on one side and sharp edges on the other side (quite clear on jezuss' photos). It points at a specific production technology, but which one?
<<

The rounded/sharp thing with the edge noticeable as there as no rims. See something similar on some of the multi-sided coins of Madagascar.

I look it up a little... Spark eroded dies.... I checked this out a little bit, die made using this method have been used in the process of making tokens with sculpted artistic designs. The method also gets a mentioned here...  https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/842/ However having checked that out it seems that the non-complex designs on the Turkish telephone tokens could be from dies (or die from models) that were made somehow with a machine rather than the talents of an artist or punches...

Thanks Mr Paul Baker

[Figleaf]

Thank you, Paul. We both got wiser from your research.

Although there are still holes in the section on Turkish telephone tokens, much progress has been made. I big thank you to those who provided additional pictures. That leaves:

1) A call on in particular transport token collectors to research Turkish round notched bus tokens.
2) I am also appealing to phone token collectors:
- My research indicates that the highly interesting BK Kumtel token in reply #5 might be Albanian.
- I am still in the dark on the piece number 433480.

Peter

[jezuss]

- I am still in the dark on the piece number 433480.

Peter

these token are made of aluminium, which is soft.
when one side is struck, figures can be visible on the other side in reverse.
whatch the reverse 4 on my token.
when the second side is struck, figures on the first side can change.
maybe that explains what you see as an 8.

[Figleaf]

Interesting thought, jezuss. I can very well imagine such an action, but not on these tokens. For one, this action would require that the number is on exactly the same place on both sides. In practice, the two sides are not just ex-centrically placed and struck, but there is also random die rotation (see e.g. reply #7).

Another thing is that a 9 will have a vertical line at right (see e.g. reply #3), while an 8 has a curve in the centre of that line and I see that curve on the picture and no sign of the vertical line. You may argue that it is the curve of an upside down 3, of course, but why is that the only digit so deeply affected by what's on the other side?

Peter