Author Topic: Unknown persian civic copper  (Read 389 times)

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Offline saro

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Unknown persian civic copper
« on: September 08, 2021, 01:51:02 PM »
25mm / 13,07g
It seems to me that it shows  a kneeled woman  working in the fields, and, I think, with at top a tool  called "coupe-marc" used in the work of the vineyard.
The signification of the sword is more puzzling (or it is a kind of knife ?)
The obverse has been overstruck (on a flower (?) design) and very little of the mintname is present (my guess is "Lahijan" ?)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 03:05:49 PM by saro »
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2021, 08:19:59 AM »
That would be quite an unusual design, saro. A living creature, a human, a woman, doing agricultural work on a civic copper? Yet, once you have read your post, you cannot un-see the woman or her knife. The problem for me is the slightly diagonal line running from 11 o'clock to 2 o'clock. I couldn't think of its function. Doubts kept creeping in. Why would you want to kneel if you want to cut something (requiring strength) with one hand that is above your head when you are kneeled?

When I hadn't read your post yet, I thought I saw a fish, head on the lower right, tail on the upper left with the line and hook being letters. That interpretation may also be just a bit too elegant for a civic copper, but it shows that maybe finding the solution requires taking a step back?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2021, 04:17:55 PM »
Thank you Peter for these pertinent comments  :)
This coin is puzzling and it is frustrating to have so few legible legends...
A woman design on a persian civic copper is not common but do exists : see this coin from Rasht mint, listed too by S.Album Auction 5 (Item 73763) with this description :
"CIVIC COPPER: AE falus (15.94g), Rasht, ND, A-3257, woman seated, holding baby, mint name rasht written with 3 separate letters, Very Fine, RR. "

Indeed, it is not the best way to cut the wheat by brandishing a sickle above its head ! but I didn't thought to a fish instead a woman...
The Zodiac sign Virgo (august 23rd- sepember 22nd) during harvest time  is often displaid on persian painting with a personnage cutting crops with a sikle,

I don't think that the horizontal straight at top could be a letter and not a tool as I thought, but I could well be wrong.

In addition, I wonder if at right of the sword it isn't the butt of a pistol ?(beyond the scalloped circle which appears to belong to a previous strike) / 2 tools followed by 2 weapons could be a symbol : "the soldier protects the peasant"

On the other face, the "floral" design could be well the head of a fish ?? stamped with "falus..."

I'm afraid we'll have to wait for a similar coin  more readable to attribute it...

"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 09:46:54 AM »
Your Vigo picture is quite convincing. A clumsy position of the arm.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2021, 11:47:25 AM »
Can't help wondering if this is actually two designs, one overstruck on the other - so the red part below is something of a legend remaining from the overstruck coin?

There is something which appears to be a border to the second coin (green circle)...
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline saro

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2021, 03:42:27 PM »
Thank you Andyg for your suggestion  :)
If my "field tools" are in fact letters, as best, they could belong to "Shiraz"; in this case, the only thing which is strange is that the stroke at top of the "alif" is reversed from the usual calligraphy; but with civic coppers all is possible....
(see this one posted on WoC some time ago))
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2021, 11:23:06 AM »
Just a coincidence? See here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Unknown persian civic copper
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2021, 09:08:29 AM »
Thank you Peter.
As far I know, such a congratulation formula never appeared on a civic copper ?
There are many cases where a letter cuts the "alif" on coins; for aesthetic reasons, they are often stylized; mainly letters "N", "R" and "Z" which are very similar, especially when dots are omitted...

I hadn't paid attention to the dot at top right of the "R" like letter which is here present and could be well a "N" ?
"Teheran" becomes now a good candidate, especially since I've found a coin of this mint with an alif showing an inverted stroke...
the engraver had to be a left-hander  ::)
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)