Author Topic: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH  (Read 502 times)

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Offline saro

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Large civic copper dated 1233 AH / 18,03g - 31mm
This coin is hand struck with a ridged edge.
dates 1233 & 1234 AH exist for this type but 1234 coins appear to be slightly lighter (15-16g).

« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 11:20:48 AM by saro »
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Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2021, 01:47:18 PM »
the coin dated 1234 AH is said to have a smooth edge, did somebody can confirm ?
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Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2021, 09:10:18 AM »
here is another beautiful one dated 1233 previously posted by Maudry
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2021, 01:46:18 PM »
the coin dated 1234 AH is said to have a smooth edge, did somebody can confirm ?

FWIW, this is the first civic issue I remember seeing that does not have a smooth edge.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2021, 02:10:19 PM »
FWIW, this is the first civic issue I remember seeing that does not have a smooth edge.
Dear Peter, I already posted two coins with such edges : one from Isfahan and another from Rasht
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Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2021, 06:22:25 PM »
added : 50 dinars / Tabriz mint
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2021, 09:04:09 PM »
In the greater scheme of things, four exceptions among the throng of civic Afghan and Persian issues ain't much, but the point that a reeded edge is possible is taken.

That immediately throws up the question of why they bothered to make a reeded edge. It's not that simple if the coin is not perfectly round and it has no practical purpose. A reeded edge is a safeguard against clipping, but clipping small coppers in a place where torturing to death as punishment is thought of as normal wouldn't be very rational.

My best guess is that the reeded edges were inspired by machine-struck Russian coins.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2021, 09:01:22 AM »
Thank you Peter,
It seems that russian coppers were widely in use in Persia at Qajars time, specially in Caspian sea areas, and among them 1800's 1 and 2 kopecks (10,2g & 20,4g); some local mints could well have tried to copy their reeded edges with more or less success...
The balance between the difficulty of this operation for hand struck flans, and the poor result is likeky the reason why Rasht mint had struck some such coins in year 1233 and soon abandonned it  ???

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Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2021, 10:49:14 AM »
A similar coin dated 1233 AH posted by Maudry clearly shows a smooth edge and so, reeded and smooth coins struck in year 1233  both exist...
Could it be a kind of ephemeral trial, I don't know  ???
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Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2021, 11:28:43 AM »
My guess is that these civic coppers could have been re-struck on russian coins of which only the reeded edge remains after the second struck in the persian mint.
this second manual minting was thus able to distort coins that were initially quite round; indeed it seems almost impossible to print the edge on an uneven coin .

As illustration : the edge of a civic copper of Lahijan showing the characteristic one of a 1751 russian denga (1/2 kopeck)
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Offline andyg

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2021, 01:23:33 PM »
I was thinking along those lines, but, I couldn't find a Russian coin of the right weight, or with the right edge for this one ???
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2021, 02:07:29 PM »
attached : edges of a denga (1/2 kopeck of 1751) and a kopeck of Elisabeth I , with similar losanges design ?

According to the weight, I agree that it's not clear... these civic coppers could well have been struck on already worn and so underweighed coins which, in addition, are found themselves today  worned after a 2nd life  ???
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Offline andyg

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2021, 06:08:02 PM »
yes agree with the second coin posted, but the one at the start of the thread I cannot find a Russian coin with a similar edge.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Rasht / lion to right looking back - 18,03g /1233 AH
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2021, 12:14:50 PM »
Dear Andyg, the question of printed edges copying western coins is interesting : among them, russian and swedish copper with oblique strays or reticulated of more or less same size or weight exist.

For the Lion type of Rasht : four coins of this type are listed on Zeno, all dated 1234 AH (one is wrongly read as 1224..) , unfortunately, without  paying interest for the edges.
From the very little parts of visible edges,  I would see on pictures :
- 1 ex. with smooth edge
- 2 ex. with reeded oblique edges
- 1 ex. with what looks like a reticulate edge
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)