Author Topic: The Weidingers of Nuremberg  (Read 130 times)

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Offline Kubedu

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The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« on: January 07, 2021, 01:13:18 AM »
I'm curious about whether there is more information on this coin.
I recently acquired a similar one, but I've been unable to find out anything about it. I see that this is an extremely old thread, but I'm hopeful.
It's also a pretty worn specimen, just add a little spice to the identification.
Best, Kristin


for that coin i think that its some kind of unique one, i heard about it, that is buried in Alianz Arena in Berlin to bring luck to football playes i searched whole internet but never find same one ... as comentator said , there is few of them im not sure about mint and etc



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Offline Figleaf

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2021, 07:51:44 AM »
Legend on first picture: GOTTES REICH BLEIBT EWIG - the kingdom of god remains forever. I see only disconnected letter groups on the other side not fitting with LAVF(F)ER or NVREMBERG. What can you read yourself?

This is a counter (Rechenpfennig in German). It is used on a counting table, much like the beads on an abacus. These products were a specialty of Nuremberg and nearby Munich. Since they were struck in a variety of brass that looked a bit like gold when it was new and because the design was vaguely reminiscent of real gold coins, many rulers required that the name and "address" of the maker be in the legend. Counters were used mostly in the accounting chambers (accountancy and bookkeeping departments) of powerful members of the nobility. Since virtually all transactions involved physical money, there was a constant temptation to commit fraud or steal money*. Counters therefore often carried religious invocations against sin, crime, fraud or stealing. In this case, the eternity of god's kingdom is an implied threat that fraudsters will go to hell and remain there for a pretty long time.

Your counter is holed. The hole is quite round. In medieval times, nails were squarish, not round, so the hole was made (much) later. When you pierce a coin, you'll get small triangular spikes, pointing down that will ruin your clothes. On your counter, those spikes were filed down to what looks like a bevelled edge around the hole: the counter was ready to be in contact with clothes. The side without the edge was to be in sight. The hole is down below (at 6 o'clock), so if the counter was hung around the neck, the image was upside down. This means that it was meant to be of use to the wearer, rather than be a decoration to be seen by another person.

The counter's function was an amulet, worn on the skin. It would be taken for old (correct), valuable and magical. Its powers were believed to protect e.g. a child against diseases or a common soldier against getting wounded or killed. When the wearer was anguished, he/she would fish the amulet out of the clothes without removing it from the neck, turn it around horizontally (so that the image was now in the correct position) and kiss it, perhaps saying a little prayer.

Peter

* compare a large clothes shop: one person controls the cash register, another checks the receipt and puts the clothes in a bag. The second person keeps the first honest. If the first bribes the second, fraud is possible.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline malj1

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 11:17:04 AM »
I can make out Weidinger on the reverse. I think it looks better rotated 90deg.

Possibly its a Nuremberg Jeton of Johann Friedrich Weidinger.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline Kubedu

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 07:41:22 PM »
Peter, as always, thank you for being such a wealth of information! On the back I can make out:
 * F(?)OL. FRIED.WEID_ _ GERS. P(?)ECH. PE(?)EN

Malcolm, I believe you're correct with the Weidinger ID, well done reading that even with it holed! Thank you so much for your time and attention.

Is there a catalogue of Nuremberg counters on WoC? I saw mention of a future catalogue (back in 2013) but wasn't able to locate one of it exists.

Thank you both again,
Kristin

Offline Figleaf

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2021, 07:52:01 PM »
You can trust Malcolm to get it right. With his and your info, I can read now .iOH(ann).FRIED(rich).WEIDInGERs RECH(en).PFennig (the capitals are readable on your counter).

I am not aware that the catalogue is now available, but who knows?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Kubedu

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2021, 08:00:42 PM »
Another counter for consideration (a screen shot, apologies):

 This counter was made by Iohann Friedrich Weidinger (1710-1765), and provides some clarification on the writing on my counter.
However, I have not yet found another counter with the Moon and Sun on one side and the imperial orb on the other (rather than the ship), making me wonder if my counter was from the beginning of IFW's career. Only a supposition.
Again, I would certainly benefit from more education on the topic!

Best, Kristin

Offline malj1

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2021, 10:13:05 PM »
I have only a jeton bearing the sun, moon and stars on one side, like yours, combined with Louis 15th on the other side.

Similar to the scan of the only entry in my small catalogue of The Counters of Nuremburg by O P Eklund (Publ. 1978 in US so may difficult to find.)
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline Kubedu

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2021, 12:10:34 AM »
Thank you for the additional information!
The search continues, I very much appreciate all the info and help!
Best, Kristin

Offline Figleaf

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Re: The Weidingers of Nuremberg
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 06:58:35 AM »
The Nuremberg families treated their dies as negotiable properties. They could be bought, sold, inherited or brought into a merger and the ones without a name could be mixed at will with the ones with a name (at least, the general assumption is that named dies stayed with the person named).

Just judging by the style, your ship die might be from a different master than Johann Weidinger. I haven't been able to read the legend. I am not even sure if it is Latin or German. What can you read?

I found a number of variants with a French king and the sun/moon/stars reverse on the net. I suspect that the design was originally meant for the French market (hence Latin legends) and depicted Louis XIV (the sun king), with the reverse symbolising the royal family. Malcolm's scan shows a later combination, equally suitable for the French market, while the combination with the orb (commonly called the apple) was obviously meant for the German market.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.