Author Topic: Quite a jumble  (Read 510 times)

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Online Figleaf

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Quite a jumble
« on: November 25, 2020, 07:36:53 AM »
Another puzzle from numismatique.fr, but different in character. The design is sharp enough, but apart from the plant it does seem a bit chaotic, doesn't it?

This coin is copper, 5.24 grams, 22 by 29 mm. The owner suspects it is a paisa from Jaipur, presumably because of the leaf. I have doubts about that idea, but I agree that it is likely to be an Indian state coin. The original thread is here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2020, 04:57:58 PM »
Struck, re-struck and overstruck...indeed quite a jumble  :-\  which reminds me of an afghan falus...
I would see (!..) a bird facing left (duck or peacock ) on upper picture, with on its back a symbol ( a kind of trident) found on some persian coppers.
On the other face, a similar leaf is found on a Kabul falus.
My guess (just a guess !) : that could be an old worn persian coin re-struck many times by afghan mint(s)
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Online Figleaf

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2020, 08:21:47 PM »
There is a design element halfway between 4 and 8 o'clock on the upper picture, half hidden by the light effect, looking a bit like a centipede that I am sure I have seen before, though vertically and larger and it may well have been Afghan also.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2020, 09:02:51 PM »
That's what I see ...
"fa" of " falus" is quite certain on 2nd picture.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2020, 09:21:08 AM »
Thanks gentlemen. I asked the owner (?) for more photos with different light.

EDIT : the owner (Alm) thanks you and will try to take more photos during this week-end.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 10:38:14 AM by Paris »

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2020, 12:58:25 PM »
The owner transmitted your answers to another forum too, Numista (in French). I did not know he would do. On Numista the member Cycnos agrees with you and thinks :
- one of the struck could have ben made in Rasht with a crowned peacock like here http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,36156.0.html
- a restruck could have been made in Khoy at the end of the 18th century like here https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=116431
- and possibly a local Afghan restruck with the leaf but he can not find an example.

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2020, 06:35:48 PM »
Here are the new photos (he has been generous in photos!) :

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2020, 06:37:33 PM »
And 5 more.

Offline saro

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2020, 09:40:18 AM »
Things are not easy... but, from these new pictures, I wonder if the 3-pointed symbol and what I took for a duck's head (  ::) ) couldn't better belong to a same floral design similar to this one this falus of Kabul ? seen on Zeno ?
It seems too that the part of the word "falus" present on the other face may also fit with this same Zeno coin.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Online Figleaf

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2020, 11:32:58 AM »
Yes, there is more than a passing resemblance. Brilliant, saro. :bow: However, it looks like another die is visible in the centre. It is obviously not the EIC ┬╝ anna seen on Zeno. It is unusual to see an earlier strike in the centre, rather than at the edge.

Likewise, the other side doesn't match. That's not unusual.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2020, 09:44:56 AM »
Thanks gentlemen. So :
- no Persian coin (as no duck),
- a falus struck in Kabul of the same type than Zeno's one,
- another Afghan falus with the leaf.
Am I right ?
The falus from Zeno has been struck after 1835, probably the same here, and what is the period of the falus with the leaf?

Offline saro

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2020, 04:30:23 PM »
Am I right ?
Yes ! :) , I don't think we can go much further...
Here is an interesting  story posted by Oesho some years ago, about the minting of rupees at Kabul mint in year 1880, more or less at time of this copper coin.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2020, 06:49:06 PM »
Thanks! For both identification and link...  :D

Offline mti

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 10:47:18 PM »
 The long leaf/branch on one side of your coin resembles: GWALIOR STATE - JAWAD MINT - ONE PAISA -  #AN49 ... I just saw it on ebay... Search ebay.com with these keywords and you will find the images...

Offline Guillaume Hermann

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Re: Quite a jumble
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2020, 09:42:40 AM »
Thanks Mti ! I gave your answer to the owner.