Roman, Arabic or something else?

Started by Figleaf, November 23, 2020, 12:09:58 PM

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Figleaf

With a question like that, you know that id will be a challenge, but also an interesting puzzle. This is a find of a curious detector pilot.

Weight is between 1 and 2 grams, diameter 16 to 18 mm. The original thread is here.

Said detector pilot believes it could be Ottoman and indeed, if I turn the second picture 45° against the clock, I can imagine a toughra. However, some veteran members of our French partner site numismatique.fr look at the first picture and see an altar as on the coins of Claudius Gothicus. Others feel there's no portrait on the second picture. More pictures in the original thread.

Personally, I think it's a small Ottoman copper struck over an earlier one.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

THCoins

Second photo is upside down. If you turn it around you can read "Zarb Fi" in the configuration as on Ottoman coins. Unfortunately the mint would be below that but is not readable.

FosseWay

Not readable, but probably not long enough to be Qustantiniyah. By probability, if it's not Qustantiniyah, it's most likely to be Misr, but I can't make anything out there.

I'd also expect the accession date to be at the bottom but can make out nothing there either.

Guillaume Hermann

Thanks all for the answers and Peter for creating this topic. What does "zarb fi" means? And "Misr" would mean a coin for Egypt?
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aws22

#4
Dear Peter, my thought of this coin is:
Ottoman Egypt, Sultan Abdul Hamid II, AH 1293/Yr 12, 1/40 Qirsh, Bronze, Misr mint, KM 287 (1876-1907 AD)
Weight 2.0 gm
Diameter 17.6 mm
Metal Bronze
Obverse:
Tughra, Sultan Abdul Hamid II
١٢ , Year of reign 12 (1886 AD)
سنه , Sanah
Reverse:
ضرب , Zarb
في , Fi
مصر , Misr (Egypt)
ربع من عشر القرش  , Quarter from tenth of the Qirsh, One fortieth of the Qirsh.
١٢٩٣ , 1293
سنه , Sanah
Please find attached a similar coin.
I hope this is correct.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

aws22

Please find attached, the correct orientation of the original coin.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

FosseWay

Quote from: Paris on November 23, 2020, 03:32:30 PM
Thanks all for the answers and Peter for creating this topic. What does "zarb fi" means? And "Misr" would mean a coin for Egypt?

Zarb fi = "struck at", followed by a mint name. The two commonest Ottoman mint names are Qustantiniyah (Istanbul) and Misr (Egypt).

aws22

Thank you FosseWay, yes you are right. For this coin, duribah (Zarb) fi Misr means: "struck in Egypt".

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

FosseWay

Misr *should* be below fi. What I think I'm seeing is a ص (or feasibly a ض) below fi, but too far over to the right to be the second letter of Misr - there's no room for the م. It's almost as if zarb is below fi, which it shouldn't be.

Figleaf

Maythem's re-orientation of the pictures helped me, but it still took a while to sink in that the upper divider is sanat and zarb is running from 3 to 6 o'clock. I agree on zarb fi being clear, so I think we can discard the Roman coin theory. However, the 1/40th guerch shown, even though the weight and diameter are correct, is a machine struck coin. Now look at the left part of fi. It is much too close to the edge of the coin compared with the coin shown. Look further down at 9 o'clock. The letters just don't fit.

Looking around, I ended up with 18th century low grade silver paras. The coin shown is incorrect - too light, but it has the correct lay-out. The mint on the coin shown is Islambol. That doesn't seem to fit what's left of that line of lettering on the coin found.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

andyg

Reminds me of this one;


https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces84341.html

But if so then the left image needs rotating thus;
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

aws22

Thank you Peter and andyg, my prediction of the coin was the nearest fit to the given information:
Weight 1 to 2 gm.
Diameter 16-18 mm
Metal Bronze.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Guillaume Hermann

Andyg, I think you got it... Thank you all! I translated the answers on numismatique.com.
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Figleaf

I agree, Paris. May I suggest you post the pictures in the right orientation as andyg posted them? Great id, andyg! Worthy of one of your puzzles ;) Turning around the toughra side removed the multiple objections I still had. Yet, there are some unexplained lines on the toughra side, so I continue to think that side was tampered with, possibly an overstrike or a removed clasp.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Guillaume Hermann

I think the coin may has been "cleaned" in an agressive way, perhaps with a stone or a piece of iron, creating some kind of lines...
Conférences à l'école, collectivité, ou domicile, avec mes objets de collection manipulables par le public, sur des sujets d'Histoire et SVT.
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