Author Topic: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra  (Read 431 times)

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Offline rlb48400

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MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« on: November 19, 2020, 09:08:35 AM »
I've recently become aware of an MTT that is countermarked (twice) with an Ottoman tughra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tughra). Stylistically the monogram is a late-period one, most likely Abdulhamid II. I know that Nejd and Hejaz countermarks on MTTs are spurious; is anyone aware of MTTs countermarked with Ottoman tughras? I've asked this question of a couple of numismatists here in Turkey and haven't been able to get a straight answer.

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Bob

Offline Henk

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2020, 08:39:49 PM »
Twe MTT's with a tughra countermark were in the Hal Wall collection, auctioned in 1997 by Paul Bosco. the lot numbers are 452 and 453 sold for $ 400 and 525 respectively.
452 has a single tughra countermark and is attributed to Hejaz. The description states it propably dates from 1876 and the stamp is a Turkish tax stamp. It is also stated that 2 pieces are known
453 has a Hejaz counterstamp (small stamp) and also the tughra counterstamp. The coin is attributed to Hejaz as well. It is stated that 4 pieces are known.

The expert advising Hal Wall on his collection was Duwayne H. Perry. I would be interesting to know if there exists an official proclamation authorising these counterstamps.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2020, 09:21:27 PM »
You need to be very careful with these horn of Africa counterstamps on MTTs. IIRC, a number if not all were debunked as modern fantasies, made to order of members of visiting military forces. I can't retrieve the story, but it is apparently old enough to have stuck in my long term memory, which still works. :'(

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2020, 09:44:27 PM »
I was wondering about that too, Peter. I've seen quite a few of these on auction sites and always thought they didn't look right. I'm far from an expert on this type of counterstamp, but do have a good feel for what's authentic and what's not...Any type.
There's actually an example on an MMT on eBay right now double stamped like this one is. I tried to post it here but couldn't get it resized enough to do so. It's a huge file and wasn't possible for me to get an image that was viewable.

I'll good back and try again, or if that fails, I'll at least get the auction number so someone can take a look at it. I've always been cautious about these stamps myself.

Bruce
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 10:35:28 PM by Figleaf »
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Offline brandm24

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2020, 09:58:22 PM »
The picture is a bit small, but I think it's the same stamp as Bob posted. BTW, the coin is offered by a seller in London and has been bid up 155 pounds (7 bids). The auction number on eBay UK is 254778213284.

Bruce

Sorry, I can't post the picture because it's the wrong type of file.
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Offline Afrasi

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2020, 09:59:31 PM »
Hafner #123 shows a MTT with the Hejaz mark and the toughra of Murad V. as a "tax stamp". I have heavy doubts about that piece, because the MTT seems to be of 1900-1930, so it is much younger.

Your toughra is of Abdulhamid II., which would fit the MTT (I guess also 1900-1930) better, but I do not believe its being original.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 12:01:58 AM by Afrasi »

Offline andyg

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2020, 11:20:11 PM »
Your toughra is of Abdulhamid II., which would fit the MTT (I guess also 1900-1930) better, but I do not believe its being original.

This particular coin comes from a seller of dodgy countermarks on ebay.uk.
He sold an amusing one the other where a '65' countermark (allegedly from Hejaz) was underneath the edge of the Tougra countermark, which given the '65' is 30 years newer presented an impossibility that it was genuine.  It still sold well for some reason.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline brandm24

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2020, 11:30:36 PM »
This particular coin comes from a seller of dodgy countermarks on ebay.uk.
He sold an amusing one the other where a '65' countermark (allegedly from Hejaz) was underneath the edge of the Tougra countermark, which given the '65' is 30 years newer presented an impossibility that it was genuine.  It still sold well for some reason.
Yes, this guy always offers large numbers of counterstamps on MMTs. While I can't be sure because I have little understanding of them, they all look suspicious to me.

Bruce
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Offline rlb48400

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2020, 07:33:26 AM »
Many thanks to everyone for the very helpful replies. The MTT whose image I posted is indeed being auctioned on eBay but the item number is 353277489108 not 254778213284. I had my doubts about the authenticity of the marks, not least because they look a little too crisp to date to the reign of Abdulhamid II and the silence from Turkish numismatists on the matter is near-deafening.  I'll probably still bid on the item because it has a certain curiosity value but at least now I know what the risks are and can bid accordingly.

When I was a kid, an uncle of mine (WW2 US Navy then merchant marine until he retired) told me "Anytime something looks too good to be true, it is." That probably applies in this case.

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Bob
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 09:45:19 AM by rlb48400 »

Offline brandm24

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2020, 09:54:18 AM »
Many thanks to everyone for the very helpful replies. The MTT whose image I posted is indeed being auctioned on eBay but the item number is 353277489108 not 254778213284.

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Bob
These are two different coins, Bob. I also saw the one you posted.

Bruce
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Offline rlb48400

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2020, 10:05:10 AM »
These are two different coins, Bob. I also saw the one you posted.

I've been unable to locate item 254778213284 on eBay. Is the number correct?

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Bob
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 10:37:17 AM by rlb48400 »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2020, 11:00:04 AM »
Not sure if it's the same (and Bruce is still asleep), but the piccies in reply #3 come from here and that number figures in the URL, which has the modest length of a giraffe's neck.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline rlb48400

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2020, 11:09:41 AM »
The complete link took me to the item. Thanks.

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Bob

Offline Henk

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2020, 11:51:21 AM »
I looked at the other offerings of seller (sattar-uk) offering the tughra counterstamp MTT. Indeed he has many more counterstamped MTT's on offer. In the description of all it is stated that: COINS IS 100% ORIGINAL , UNKNOWN DATE AND ORIGINALITY OF THE COUNTER MARK FANTASY ISSUE. So he states these are fantasy issues.

He also has a 1912 Indian Rupee on offer with the same two tughra stamps: 254778211875. Sultan Abdulhamid II reigned from 1876 to 1909, when he was desposed in favour of his brother Mohammed V. So his stamp on a 1912 coin is suspicious. Also the stamp is said to date from 1876. Consistent with Abdulhamid II but not with the coin.

In my opinion having two identical counterstamps a a coin is suspicious because one counterstamp is enough and why would a coiner spend extra work in applying two? He would probably be paind according to the number of coins stamped so two stamps would be a waste of time and causing extra wear on the die so that twice as many would be needed.

I have not checked but I think that the talers used are all relatively recent, 20th century ones.

Offline brandm24

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Re: MTT countermarked with an Ottoman tughra
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2020, 05:09:13 PM »
Not sure if it's the same (and Bruce is still asleep), but the piccies in reply #3 come from here and that number figures in the URL, which has the modest length of a giraffe's neck.

Peter

Still asleep indeed! I usually get up about 3 a.m EST and check WoC first thing...well, after I make myself a cup of coffee. ;D  BTW, Peter, thanks for posting the pictures for me.


Bruce
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