Author Topic: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital  (Read 532 times)

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Offline aws22

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Re: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2020, 12:35:33 PM »
Thank you Anthony, you have the date is correct now; the year AH 556/1161 AD, it falls within the reign of Ghurid, al-Malik Sayf al-Din Muhammad (AH 556-558/1161-1163 AD). Sayf freed the two sons of Baha al-Din Sam I, Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad and Mu'izz al-Din Muhammad, and sayf was then succeeded by Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad.

Maythem
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 08:08:30 AM by aws22 »
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline THCoins

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Re: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2020, 09:13:56 AM »
Agree that the visible date suggest production during the reign of Sayf al-din Muhammad. I think however, that this coin has nothing to do with this former ruler.

The Allan article suggests Ghazni, and the Tye catalog Taliqan as likely minting place. both in Afghanistan. In this respect it may also be of importance to note that my coins were from independent sources five years apart. But both came from the Punjab in Pakistan. Notably, these came not from Peshawar, where a lot of Afghan coins have surfaced in the past. This low quality billon is not the type of coin which is expected to be used in trade far from the area of production.

The combination of all facts makes me believe that the coin was minted far later than 556AH.

I would love to see conclusive physical evidence of the generally accepted dating to 596AH. For the Allan piece it is remarkable that he transcribes "59x". The picture of the plate coin suggests that the 90 part was almost totally off flan. He seems to have based his conclusion largely on the assumption that the coin must have been minted after the death of Ghiyath because of the title used in the legend. 

Offline shiblius

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Re: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2020, 11:29:19 PM »
As per Bosworth, 556 AH is the year when Ala Al-Din Hussain Jahansooz died and was succeeded by his son Saif al-Din Muhammad, while the newly acquired regions (from Ghaznavids) of Garmsir (southern Afghanistan) went under the control of (the then) Shihab al-Din; the later Muiz al-Din Ghauri. This however begs the question about Ghiyath al-Din about whom the same source cites that Ala al-Din Hussain had asked Khusrawshah (the Ghaznavid rulers) to cede his territories of Garmsir to his nephew Ghiyath al-Din. This coin might actually confirm that the Ghauri brothers might have acquired some sub-rule in the Ghorid holdings quite early.

Offline THCoins

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Re: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2020, 09:19:43 AM »
Agree on the historic implications Shiblius. However, i could accept this possibility if  Mu'izz was named as malik. But the use of Sultan al-a'zam in this early period would be a strange protocol violation. Also it contradicts the generally accepted idea that Mu'izz received this name and his title of Sultan around the time of the takeover of Ghazni.
Also, i am not yet sure if specimed dated 596 actually exist. If so, why 2 identical issues so many years apart ?
I also placed the coin on Zeno hoping for possible further input.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 06:43:30 PM by THCoins »

Offline shiblius

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Re: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2020, 05:33:56 PM »
As per other evidence we know that the "protocol" (Ghorid titulature and its correlation with feudal ranks) had not stabilized by then as also evident from the switching of titles betwen the brothers after they came to power. On the issues of the Ghorids of Bamiyan we find titles that are all over the place: Malik al-Azam (very unusual since by definition Malik cannot be Azam, unless there are other Maliks among whom one is highest in rank), also Sultan Al-Muazzam (different (feudal/political) relationship with the main ruler at Firukuh as compared to a Malik).
It could also be that the titles were reflective of the local hierarchy and had enough autonomy to proclaim the local ruler (at Bamiyan / Garamsir) as Sultan al-Azam with the understanding that the title is completely local and within the larger context of the Ghorid / Shansabani family not comparable between branches, so that a ruler at Bamiyan can be Sultan al-Azam but still be lower in the feudal hierarchy than the Sultan al-Azam at Firuzkuh. This can be borne out by the coins of Baha al-Din Sam (588-602) who is proclaimed as Sultan Al-Azam on his coins.

Offline THCoins

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Re: Some help please on reading date in Arab on Ghorid Jital
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2020, 06:41:53 PM »
Agree, there is a lot about the history of the period which is not fully clear. Physical finds, like this cointype which seems to contradict our established concepts, show that also history is a dynamic science.