Author Topic: Bambergen, silver ½ groschen 1513, George III  (Read 144 times)

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Offline Kubedu

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Bambergen, silver ½ groschen 1513, George III
« on: August 17, 2020, 11:44:39 PM »
Hi guys,
I'm new to this site, and I'm hoping someone has way more knowledge about this coin than I do- I obtained it as part of a silver lot, and having some problems with identification.

Specs:
21.7mm at widest point (20.5mm at narrowest)
0.4mm thick
0.6g (approximately)
Likely silver

I suspect that this coin is from the German Diocese/Bishopric of Bamberg, based on similar coins from between 1200 and 1500 in the region that I have found. I believe that the reverse shows the Bamberg coat of arms (a lion facing left, with a bend), within a trilobe. However, I have been unable to locate a similar obverse, with the bishop (or Prince-Bishop) holding a staff and either holding a church or standing next to one.
The church itself, which appears to be asymmetrical, is reminiscent of the Bamberg Upper Parish Church (Church of Our Lady), built from 1375-1425.

I could be totally off-base, and I'm a bit confounded by the writing around the edge. Some of the letters are unreadable, and I'm not familiar with the script, but here's my best guess:
Obverse: SA(N)CT RV(N)CV(N)O--- 
Reverse: MO(N)-HOP.GI.---BAMBERGE(N).DI-

Sidebar: Please take all above interpretation with a grain of salt.
All the (N)s are backwards, which... Cyrillic? And the BAMBERG might just be wishful thinking.

Thank you very much for your time and expertise.
Kristin K
« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 12:18:05 AM by Figleaf »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Medieval German coin- possibly Bamberg?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2020, 12:14:01 AM »
Bambergen, silver ½ groschen 1513 in the name of Georg III Schenk von Limburg, bishop of Bambergen. Known with dates 1512, 1513, 1514. Should be 20 mm. A very early dated coin.

Obv: State arms: a black, climbing lion on a gold field, upper and lower part separated by a silver diagonal, all in a double trilobe within a circle. +MONeta:GEORGIvs:EPIscopvs:BAMBERGEN anno :Domini (15)13 - coin of George of Bambergen in the year of our lord 1513.

Rev: Saint Cunigunde crowned and haloed, head breaking through inner circle in imperial robe, holding miniature church left (symbol for having had a church built) and imperial scepter right. +SANCTa KVNGVNDI IMPERATRIX - Saint Cunigunde empress.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Kubedu

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Re: Bambergen, silver ½ groschen 1513, George III
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2020, 01:52:35 AM »
Hi, Peter!

That's the one, thank you so much for your expertise! Very impressed.
NGS has a page on this coin, but I'm not seeing it in many other catalogues. Would you recommend a particular internet or print reference material for this kind of coin? Thank you again,

Kristin

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Bambergen, silver ½ groschen 1513, George III
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2020, 10:59:34 AM »
There's a joke about a Russian general, whose staff car breaks down in a small village in Poland. His driver doesn't find a garage and returns in desperation with the village smith. The smith opens the hood, looks at the engine for a while, rummages around a bit, picks up a stone and rams it into the engine. The general panics, but the smith tells the driver to start the car. The car engine works again. The happy general offers payment and the smith asks 1000 zloty. The general, appalled but not unthankful, requests a specification of the amount. The smith writes: Given a bang - 1 zloty. Knowing where - 999 zloty.

The point of the story: if you know where to look it's not so difficult.

Here's a long version of the "recipe":

BAMBERGEN is readable on your coin. Often used words on medieval coins are SANCT and MONETA in various shortened forms. Your attempt to read the legend was helpful. Thank you.

In the third section of our collection of useful links, there is one for German medieval coins. This will take you to the online description of the collection of Hugo Saurma. The collection is well indexed, but in this case, I could search for Bambergen, where I easily found your coin (illustration 563), so I could read the rest of the legend, find the date and the denomination.

Since the pictures in Saurma are not too sharp, I searched on Google with Bambergen, denomination and date range and found a better picture on MA-shops, a German dealer collective, offered by renowned dealer and auctioneer Künker.

For missing details, I consulted Wikipedia on Saint Cunigunde (see link above) and the civic heraldry site that is in the first section of our list of useful links. Scroll all the way down here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.