Author Topic: Mongol-Chaghatayid seal?  (Read 253 times)

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Offline Paschka

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Mongol-Chaghatayid seal?
« on: July 29, 2020, 06:56:30 PM »
I would like to know your opinion about this product?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 04:41:54 PM by Paschka »

Offline Seeker55

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 05:04:53 AM »
Interesting coin! Is it silver? Weight, dimensions?

Offline Paschka

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 12:52:32 PM »
15 x 16 mm , 2,70 gram. Silver
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 03:45:40 PM by Paschka »

Offline aws22

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2020, 04:37:43 PM »
Dear Paschka, looking at Paul’s post dated April 12, 2020, the Tamgha on your coin is similar to tamgha of (Chaghatayid, Danishmandji Khan) as shown in attachment.
Your coin looks like:
Chaghatayid, with name of Danishmandji Khan and Tamgha, AR Dinar, mint? (AH 747-749/1346-1348 AD)
I hope that helps.
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,48177.msg301179.html#msg301179

Maythem

« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:08:28 PM by aws22 »
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Paschka

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2020, 06:05:01 PM »
And what does that mean?

Offline aws22

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2020, 07:18:11 PM »
It means that the ID of your coin could be:
Chaghatayid, with name of Danishmandji Khan and Tamgha, Date?, AR Dinar, mint? (AH 747-749/1346-1348 AD)
Both date and mint are not readable.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Paschka

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2020, 07:34:20 PM »
Dear Maythem,  thank you so much for your help in identifying this coin. This sign was much earlier than the 14th century.   
I'll tell you my hypothesis: this is not a coin.  This is a seal. Therefore, it is not readable.

Offline aws22

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2020, 09:06:05 PM »
Thank you Paschka, I used the tamgha to identify the ruler and hence the the reign period was estimated. It could be a seal or some kind of imitation.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2020, 09:43:58 PM »
It's not a dinar. They are typically 7.75 to 8 grams. Though it would be a bit overweight, it might be ⅓ dinar. I have not found other than round coins on Zeno and in MWI. The tamgha on the coins shows the cupcake on top quite clearly, but not the fork on the bottom, making the rendition on Paschka's piece a-typical. The script looks sloppy, not the well-kempt, ornamental lettering on the coins. There is no reason why seals should be unreadable.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Paschka

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2020, 10:54:08 PM »
...this is how you can read it

Offline aws22

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 03:38:12 AM »
Dear Peter, I agree it is not a silver dinar. I found this similar coin in Mongolian Coins, the word “ Khallad خلد “ is to the right of the Tamgha (same as in Paschka's coin):
https://mongoliancoins.com/coins_of_mongol_empire_chakhatayid.html
Chaghatayid, khalil Allah Khan (AH 742-744/1341-1343 AD)
AR dinar. Bukhara.ND. With name of Khan Khalil Allah and Tamgha.
30 mm, 7.8 gm

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Paschka

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2020, 10:33:53 PM »
Dear Maythem, please tell me: and put here above the imprint of this seal on paper, can you read it better than on the print itself? Is the text readable there? Do you think I have a seal?

My hypothesis is that this is the seal of the son of Genghis Khan, whose name was Jochi Khan and who was the founder of the Jochid clan.  His name should be on the seal. On the top line.

My hypothesis is that this seal is around 1210 or 1220.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 11:59:40 PM by Paschka »

Offline aws22

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2020, 04:08:51 AM »
Dear Paschka, the top line of your imprint of this seal on paper reads:
 تغلق خان .................... Tughluq Khan.
The word preceding " Tughluq تغلق " looks like " Muhammad محمد " (not sure).
I do not see the word " Jochi Khan جوجي خان or جوتشي خان " on your imprint.
I hope that helps.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 09:57:57 AM »
I found this similar coin in Mongolian Coins, the word “ Khallad خلد “ is to the right of the Tamgha (same as in Paschka's coin)

I think that's a really good match for the tamgha on Paschka's coin. Most excellent research! I am still bothered by the sloppy script, though. Compare the script on the coin picture you found with that on Paschka's coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline aws22

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Re: Chaghatayid?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 11:03:33 AM »
Thank you Peter, comparing the two scripts on both coins shows the possibility of imitation on Paschka's coin. Paschka seems to be in favor that his coin is the seal of the son of Genghis Khan " Jochi Khan جوچی خان or جوتشى خان ".

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".