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Elusive copper-nickel commemorative coins of India, 2000-2008

Started by Vincent, October 20, 2020, 09:05:52 PM

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Vincent

#15
October 28, 2020, 12:49:09 PM
It is now possible to say where the RBI is getting its information from regarding the composition of the coins. @Bimat made the observation in a quote further up that an "RBI Press Release goofs up the composition part". The exact same error can be found in The Gazette of India, Extraordinary, Part II, Section 3, Sub-section (ii), S.O. 1221(E) of July 26th, 2007. So, the RBI draws the information from the gazette, they don't get it from the mints, as I had suggested above (October 24th).

Vincent

#16
October 28, 2020, 12:51:21 PM
@Pabitra, having read a comment of yours in a discussion back in January, I now think we agree more than I thought. It seems that you think the glass is half empty while I think it's half full.

Quote from: Pabitra on January 23, 2020, 03:59:07 AM
The issue of 5 Rupees Copper Nickel coins was stopped in 2004. However, the specifications were not changed till 2008. All commemorative coins of this denomination were minted in limited mintage, with old specifications, for release function purpose but were not issued to public.
Only in 2008, the specifications for 5 Rupees coin in stainless steel were approved and all coins were minted and issued to public. The Copper Nickel coins, already minted and not issued were also issued to public.

I think it's possible to get a more detailed understanding of these 5 rupee coins if we put them on a timeline and see where they fall individually, rather than looking at the group as a whole. The references in the timeline below are to The Gazette of India, Extraordinary, Part II, Section 3, and to RBI press releases, except where otherwise stated. I have arranged the types chronologically, based on when they were authorised by the government, and added dates for release function and RBI press release. The latter two are, of course, the formal launch of the coin by the government and the announcement of the coin entering circulation, respectively. All related release functions were held in connention with the copper-nickel versions, never in connection with the later steel versions.


   One observation that can be made from the above timeline is that the first ever stainless steel 5 rupees coin that was authorised by the government was the 5 rupees denomination of the Unity in Diversity coin series. The Unity in Diversity 5 rupees coin was authorised January 24th, 2007. All of the stainless steel commemorative 5 rupee coins (and the definitive connectivity and information technology 5 rupees coin) come after the Unity in Diversity coin. Another observation is that the shift from copper-nickel to stainless steel did not take place in one go. For each coin type minted in stainless steel there was an individual authorisation by the government to make the given coin type in that metal. A third observation is that some of the copper-nickel coins were authorised before the authorisation of the first steel 5 rupees coin, while some were authorised after.
   What this means is that there never was a magical cut-off date (such as the signing of the memorandum of understanding), before which all 5 rupee coins were made in copper-nickel (but only for the release function) and after which all 5 rupee coins were made in stainless steel for circulation. It's more complicated than that. Each of the nine copper-nickel coins has its own history, which is not necessarily identical to that of the other eight types.
   Let me illustrate my point. Here's my interpretation of the Dandi March type and the Narayana Gurudev type:


  • The Dandi March type was made in copper-nickel between September 15th, 2005 and May 3rd, 2007, and in stainless steel after May 3rd, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held October 2nd, 2005. I believe that the copper-nickel version was never released into circulation by the RBI (but the steel version was). I believe this for two reasons: the RBI never issued a press release about a Dandi March copper-nickel coin being put into circulation, and the coin is an extremely rare find in circulation. For the same reasons, I believe that the business strike version of the copper-nickel coin was disposed of in its entirety at the release function. If true then all coins must have been minted before October 2nd, 2005.
  • The Narayana Gurudev type was made in copper-nickel between August 24th, 2006 and October 31st, 2007, and in stainless steel after October 31st, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held September 7th, 2006. I believe that both the copper-nickel version and the steel version were released into circulation by the RBI. I believe this for two reasons: the RBI issued a press release announcing that it would put the copper-nickel coin into circulation, and the coin is obtainable, as opposed to the business strike version of the Dandi March copper-nickel coin. In other words, the coin was not only available at the release function.

I am suggesting that it would be possible to make similar interpretations of the other seven types. There is more to uncover here. A common feature for all copper-nickel types of this time period would be that the price of the raw materials would have a dampening effect on the number of coins produced. Conclusions would be based on the most reasonable interpretation of the available evidence, not on absolute certainty. Afterall, how much of our knowledge is based on absolute certainty anyway?

Bimat

#17
October 28, 2020, 03:22:10 PM
Do we have any members from India who have RTI (Right to Information) experience? I think this topic deserves a lot of answers from government also and this information shouldn't really be considered as "classified" by the authorities...

Aditya
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.

Pabitra

#18
October 28, 2020, 03:28:31 PM
@vincent, your long answers make it difficult to give point wise reply.
There is no question on glass half empty.
During 2004 to 2008, even definitive coins of 5 Rupees were not being minted.

Pabitra

#19
October 28, 2020, 03:31:45 PM
The extreme fast rising price of Nickel was the culprit

Pabitra

#20
October 28, 2020, 03:33:27 PM
In 2004 itself, India was experimenting with bimetallic 5 Rupees to replace Copper Nickel 5 Rupees

Pabitra

#21
October 28, 2020, 03:34:27 PM
Dandi March 5 Rupees was tested for Copper Nickel

Pabitra

#22
October 28, 2020, 03:36:09 PM
5 Rupee Unity in Diversity was not a commemorative issue but a definitive issue

Vincent

#23
October 28, 2020, 05:05:07 PM
@Pabitra, I understand your reasoning like this:

During 2003, the price of nickel rose substantially. Therefore, the government began to look for alternatives to nickel, and production of non-commemorative copper-nickel coins was halted in 2004. Therefore, the production of copper-nickel commemorative coins that did take place during 2005-08 must have had other purposes than providing coinage for circulation.

This has to be weighed against what you said in January, which was:

"[...] 5 Rupees coin in stainless steel were approved and all coins were minted and issued to public. The Copper Nickel coins, already minted and not issued were also issued to public."

I assume your point of view is that copper-nickel 5 rupee coins released by the RBI around 2008 were leftovers from those release functions where only a part of the coins were sold. That may be true. And in that case, I'd like to know which release functions left behind a surplus that was later released into circulation by the RBI and which did not. My "interpretations" of the Dandi March copper-nickel coin vs. the Narayana Gurudev copper-nickel coin was an attempt at resolving this issue. I don't know if some people might think "who on earth cares?". I think that it's a valid question that's worth pursuing.
   The reason why I assemble all of this data in my long posts is that I expect that only the most nerdy numismatists would go through the trouble of putting this stuff together. Having once put in the effort to provide links to the gazette and pointers to the press releases, it will be easier for others going forward to look into it. This is what I'm trying to encourage.

dheer

#24
October 28, 2020, 05:36:39 PM
Thanks Vincent for indexing this information. In my view the RBI press release don't hold much value.  These are best supplementary information. I.e. if a press release exists, possibly the coins were more often put into circulation.  However RBI press release are not consistent. One can easily find quite a few coins in circulation but no press releases.  I think there are also few cases in past I think around 90's where there is press release but no coins in circulation.

I  would give more weight to collectors reporting than the press releases.
http://coinsofrepublicindia.blogspot.in
A guide on Republic India Coins & Currencies

dheer

#25
October 28, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
There are few collectors who have gone RTI way for other coins (land vital, crop science, etc) and haven't got any concrete answers... it keeps getting redirected to mints and other places.
http://coinsofrepublicindia.blogspot.in
A guide on Republic India Coins & Currencies

Pabitra

#26
October 29, 2020, 05:41:31 AM
Quote from: Vincent on October 28, 2020, 05:05:07 PM

And in that case, I'd like to know which release functions left behind a surplus that was later released into circulation by the RBI and which did not.


@vincent, you have done a great job of locating all the relevant links but the information you seem to be trying to get may not have been kept by RBI. The normal practice was to authorise the mint to deal with organisers of the concerned release function. Mint representative would go with quantity indented and minted and many times, the organisers would keep all the quantity whereas in some cases, the indented quantity was quite low since the organisers did not plan to have an elaborate release function. Having attended quite a few functions, I am very much aware of upper and lower limits of number of attendees which could be from few thousands to tens of persons.

Perhaps, the only way you can get this information is to locate some serious numismatist who attended concerned release function and made an attempt to buy the circulation pieces.

During this period, even definitive coins underwent quite a few changes, which are not normal for circulation coins. From 2004 to 2011, four series were issued.

Vincent

#27
November 03, 2020, 03:11:54 PM
I think of these 5 rupee copper-nickel types in the same way that I would think of the American half dollar commemorative coins of 1892-1954. There are all sorts of strange stories about those half dollar coins and how they were distributed. They were usually sold at $ 1 each and thus did not normally enter circulation. They were distributed through committees that were raising funds for charitable causes. Sometimes those committees would be corrupt and they would utilise their monopoly on the coins to drive up the prices. Sometimes the coins did actually end up in circulation, especially during the depression in the 1930s. I am not suggesting that the stories behind the 5 rupees commemoratives are similar to those behind the half dollar commemoratives, but I am suggesting that the stories behind the 5 rupees commemoratives are equally numismatically relevant and deserve to be told.

Quote from: Pabitra on October 29, 2020, 05:41:31 AM
@vincent, you have done a great job of locating all the relevant links but the information you seem to be trying to get may not have been kept by RBI. The normal practice was to authorise the mint to deal with organisers of the concerned release function. Mint representative would go with quantity indented and minted and many times, the organisers would keep all the quantity whereas in some cases, the indented quantity was quite low since the organisers did not plan to have an elaborate release function. Having attended quite a few functions, I am very much aware of upper and lower limits of number of attendees which could be from few thousands to tens of persons.

Perhaps, the only way you can get this information is to locate some serious numismatist who attended concerned release function and made an attempt to buy the circulation pieces.

Thank you for suggestions as to how to proceed! I understand that the RBI may themselves not actually know the answers to these questions. I am thinking of going ahead with figuring out the most reasonable explanation for each coin type. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. Another point in going ahead is that attempting to answer questions tends to create greater clarity as to which avenues might lie ahead, should I or someone else like to investigate further at some point.
   I would also like to thank @dheer for your comments on the reliability of the RBI press releases. I have formed a similar opinion myself. I do think I was a little bit too harsh in my original post, though. I said: "So, the RBI acknowledges all nine designs, but regularly fails to distinguish between copper-nickel and stainless steel.". I think Pabitra has made a very important point about coins being made available to the public at release functions. If a copper-nickel coin was made available at a release function, the whole issue was disposed of there with no leftovers, and that coin was not put into circulation by the RBI, then we shouldn't complain that there is no RBI press release, because the RBI does not issue press releases about coins that they don't put into circulation. Your point, @dheer, that the combined experience of collectors is more reliable than the press releases of the RBI, is well taken.
   Another thing about RBI press releases is that the information in them is drawn from The Gazette of India, not from the mints.

Quote from: Vincent on October 28, 2020, 12:49:09 PM
It is now possible to say where the RBI is getting its information from regarding the composition of the coins. @Bimat made the observation in a quote further up that an "RBI Press Release goofs up the composition part". The exact same error can be found in The Gazette of India, Extraordinary, Part II, Section 3, Sub-section (ii), S.O. 1221(E) of July 26th, 2007. So, the RBI draws the information from the gazette, they don't get it from the mints, as I had suggested above (October 24th).

This means that we are relying on the RBI having pulled the correct notifications from the gazette after having received the coins from the mints. This should ideally not be a problem, but then again, who knows.
   With regard to relative scarcity, I reiterate this (estimated by CoinsOfRepublicIndia):


  • 5 rupees 2004 Lal Bahadur Shastri (copper-nickel): Rare.
  • 5 rupees 2005 Dandi March (copper-nickel): Very Rare.
  • 5 rupees 2006 Mahatma Basaveshwara (copper-nickel): Plenty.
  • 5 rupees 2006 Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) (copper-nickel): Very Rare.
  • 5 rupees 2006 Jagath Guru Sree Narayana Gurudev (copper-nickel): Rare.
  • 5 rupees 2007 Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak (copper-nickel): Rare.
  • 5 rupees 2007 First War of Independence (Sepoy Mutiny) (copper-nickel): Rare.

The 5 rupees 2007 Khadi and Village Industries Commission (copper-nickel) is not listed because he has not confirmed its existence. It should presumably be ranked 'very rare', using the same rarity scale. 5 rupees 2006 State Bank of India has not been confirmed to exist as a circulation strike. @dheer is confident that it does exist, and if so, it would be 'very rare'.
   Also, take into account:

Quote from: dheer on October 21, 2020, 06:28:38 AM
3. 150 years of war of Independence, collectors insist on cupro nickel, all sample I have seen are from broken unc sets and not circulation strikes.

That is, assuming that a business strike version of it does exist it is 'very rare'. As far as I can tell, the degrees of rarity expressed here seem to be about right.
   Assuming that I have understood Pabitra correctly, the contention is that copper-nickel was not used for coins intended for circulation after 2004 and that copper-nickel coins released into circulation in subsequent years were leftovers from coins minted in preparation for release functions where only part of the mintage was ultimately disposed of. I am not going to take issue with this position, although I might point out a couple of caveats. 1) Stainless steel 5 rupee coins were only authorised in 2007. Therefore, halting production of copper-nickel coins for circulation in 2004 would mean that no 5 rupee coins were minted for circulation during 2005 and 2006. That is a bit extreme for a country that suffers from chronic shortage of coins. 2) The mints could have had some leftover copper-nickel blanks for 5 rupee coins by the end of 2004. They may have decided that they might as well make use of them and mint a decent quantity of 5 rupees commemorative coins.
   Now, on to the status of the nine copper-nickel types and the nine steel types. Let's get the nine steel types out of the way first. As explained earlier, the coins presented at release functions were in all nine cases copper-nickel coins. Therefore, the stainless steel coins have nothing to do with release functions. They can only have one purpose, namely to be released by the RBI into general circulation. Eight out of the nine stainless steel types have an RBI press release associated with it, explicitly saying that the RBI is putting it into circulation. The exception is the Tilak steel type, which doesn't have a press release. Even in this case, it must have been made for the purpose of being released into general circulation by the RBI. Realistically speaking there are no other purposes for the coin. The missing press release must be a slip-up by the RBI. The RBI may not have noticed that some of their Tilak coins were actually made out of stainless steel, they might therefore have thought that they were already covered by the press release announcing the Tilak copper-nickel type (issued October 31st, 2007).
   And now, my interpretations of the nine copper-nickel types. These should not be seen as final or unassailable conclusions, they are simply what I consider to be the most reasonable interpretations, based on the available evidence. I have colour-coded the entries to improve overview. Dark green = I consider this coin to have been released into circulation by the RBI, lime green = I consider it likely that this coin was released into circulation by the RBI, red = I believe that this coin was not released into circulation by the RBI, purple = I am inclined to believe that this coin was not released into circulation by the RBI, but there's conflicting information.


  • The Lal Bahadur Shastri type was made in copper-nickel between September 14th, 2005 and January 22nd, 2008, and in stainless steel after January 22nd, 2008 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held October 4th, 2005. I tend to believe that the copper-nickel version was put into circulation by the RBI, in spite of the fact that they didn't issue a press release announcing this coin. I believe this because it is one of the more available types and is therefore likely to not only have been available at the release function. The absence of an RBI press release may be caused by the early batches of copper-nickel coins being released together with the later steel coins (released October 1st, 2008) and the RBI being unaware that their coins are of two different compositions.
  • The Dandi March type was made in copper-nickel between September 15th, 2005 and May 3rd, 2007, and in stainless steel after May 3rd, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held October 2nd, 2005. I believe that the copper-nickel version was never released into circulation by the RBI. I believe this for two reasons: the RBI never issued a press release about a Dandi March copper-nickel coin being put into circulation, and the coin is an extremely rare find in circulation. For the same reasons, I believe that the business strike version of the copper-nickel coin was disposed of in its entirety at the release function. If true then all coins must have been minted before October 2nd, 2005.
  • The State Bank of India type was made in copper-nickel between February 10th, 2006 and January 22nd, 2008 and in stainless steel after January 22nd, 2008 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held May 30th, 2006. I believe that the copper-nickel version was never released into circulation by the RBI. I believe this for two reasons: the RBI never issued a press release about a State Bank of India copper-nickel coin being put into circulation, and the coin is an extremely rare find in circulation. For the same reasons, I believe that the business strike version (assuming that it exists) of the copper-nickel coin was disposed of in its entirety at the release function. If true then all coins must have been minted before May 30th, 2006. (Specifically with regard to the State Bank of India copper-nickel coin, a business strike version has not been confirmed to exist. There are reports (see our discussion) of it existing, though, and I'm happy to believe that it does.).
  • The Mahatma Basaveshwara type was made in copper-nickel between January 19th, 2006 and April 26th, 2007 and in stainless steel after April 26th, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held June 23rd, 2006. I tend to believe that the copper-nickel version was put into circulation by the RBI, in spite of the fact that they didn't issue a press release announcing this coin. I believe this because it is one of the more available types and is therefore likely to not only have been available at the release function. The absence of an RBI press release may be caused by the early batches of copper-nickel coins being released together with the later steel coins (released July 18th, 2008) and the RBI being unaware that their coins are of two different compositions.
  • The Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) type was made in copper-nickel between August 8th, 2006 and January 22nd, 2008 and in stainless steel after January 22nd, 2008 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held August 14th, 2006. I believe that the copper-nickel version was never released into circulation by the RBI. I believe this for two reasons: the RBI never issued a press release about an ONGC copper-nickel coin being put into circulation, and the coin is an extremely rare find in circulation. For the same reasons, I believe that the business strike version of the copper-nickel coin was disposed of in its entirety at the release function. If true then all coins must have been minted before August 14th, 2006.
  • The Narayana Gurudev type was made in copper-nickel between August 24th, 2006 and October 31st, 2007, and in stainless steel after October 31st, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held September 7th, 2006. I believe that the copper-nickel version was released into circulation by the RBI. I believe this for two reasons: the RBI issued a press release announcing that it would put the copper-nickel coin into circulation, and the coin is obtainable, as opposed to, e.g., the business strike version of the Dandi March copper-nickel coin. In other words, the coin was not only available at the release function.
  • The Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak type was made in copper-nickel between July 5th, 2007 and October 15th, 2007, and in stainless steel after October 15th, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held July 23rd, 2007. I believe that the copper-nickel version was released into circulation by the RBI. I believe this for two reasons: the RBI issued a press release announcing that it would put the copper-nickel coin into circulation, and the coin is obtainable, as opposed to, e.g., the business strike version of the Dandi March copper-nickel coin. In other words, the coin was not only available at the release function.
  • The Khadi and Village Industries Commission type was made in copper-nickel between July 5th, 2007 and October 15th, 2007 and in stainless steel after October 15th, 2007 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held November 19th, 2007. On the one hand, collectors report that the copper-nickel version is an extremely rare find in circulation. On the other hand, the RBI has issued a press release announcing that it is going to put the coin into circulation. I accept @dheer's advice about giving more weight to reports from collectors than to RBI press releases. I am therefore inclined to believe that the copper-nickel version was not released into circulation by the RBI. For the same reason, I believe that the business strike version of the copper-nickel coin was disposed of in its entirety at the release function. If true then all coins must have been minted before November 19th, 2007. Note that the RBI press releases regarding the copper-nickel version and the steel version were released on the same day (October 24th, 2008). It is possible that the RBI pulled both notifications from the gazette and published both of them simultaneously, just to be on the safe side.
  • The First War of Independence (Sepoy Mutiny) type was made in copper-nickel between July 26th, 2007 and November 11th, 2008 and in stainless steel after November 11th, 2008 (dates based on the dates of authorisation). The release function was held April 18th, 2008. On the one hand, collectors report that the copper-nickel version is an extremely rare find in circulation. On the other hand, the RBI has issued a press release announcing that it is going to put the coin into circulation. I accept @dheer's advice about giving more weight to reports from collectors than to RBI press releases. I am therefore inclined to believe that the copper-nickel version was not released into circulation by the RBI. For the same reason, I believe that the business strike version of the copper-nickel coin was disposed of in its entirety at the release function. If true then all coins must have been minted before April 18th, 2008. Note that in this case (and in this case only) the RBI press release regarding the copper-nickel version (dated November 12th, 2007) comes after the authorisation by the government, but before the release function. This suggests that the RBI has messed up and announced the release of a coin that they did not actually have.

It is interesting to note that there's something questionable about the RBI press releases in both of the "purple" cases above, i.e. the cases where I lean towards non-release by the RBI while there is conflicting evidence. Maybe there wouldn't be any conflicting evidence in these cases if the RBI press releases had been completely in order.
   You can take the above interpretations for whatever you think it's worth. If nothing else, it might inspire new questions and new avenues of investigation.

idiotghost

#28
November 05, 2020, 01:23:13 PM
Interesting observations & analysis Vincent, pretty detailed one :)

Here is my 2 cents of knowledge that I have gathered after speaking with gazillion dealers & seeing infinite coin bidding posts on FB groups. Some of them are factual & objective, some maybe fictitious & subjective as they are hearsays.

5 rupees 2004 Lal Bahadur Shastri (copper-nickel): Heard people getting it in circulation, I was never lucky! I had to buy from a dealer at Rs 50 in Jan 2020. The coin I bought looked like a circulation strike, nowhere close to finesse of a UNC or Proof.

5 rupees 2005 Dandi March (copper-nickel): Seen only UNC/Proof Broken sets mostly. But there was 1 bidding post on FB last week which was a worn out circulation coin (mentioned in the post). It went for some 2000+ finally.

5 rupees 2006 Mahatma Basaveshwara (copper-nickel): I found in circulation in Dec 2019 at a Paan shop in Mumbai.

5 rupees 2006 Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) (copper-nickel): Heard from dealers that this was only there in UNC/proof sets & all the coins available on FB are broken from sets, never in circulation.

5 rupees 2006 Jagath Guru Sree Narayana Gurudev (copper-nickel): Heard people getting it in circulation, I was never lucky! I had to buy from a dealer at Rs 50 in July 2020. The coin I bought looked like a circulation strike, nowhere close to finesse of a UNC or Proof.

5 rupees 2007 Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak (copper-nickel): Heard people getting it in circulation, I was never lucky! Dealers quote between 200-350 based on grade. Circulation & worn out ones are also available at cheaper rates.

5 rupees 2007 First War of Independence (Sepoy Mutiny) (copper-nickel): Seen only UNC/Proof Broken sets mostly. But there was 1 bidding post on FB 3 months back which was a worn out circulation coin (mentioned in the post). It went for some 2000+ finally. I had bought some other coins from this dealer at that time, so it was genuine info.

5 rupees 2006 State Bank of India (copper-nickel): Heard from dealers that this was only there in UNC/proof sets & all the coins available on FB are broken from sets, never in circulation.

5 rupees 2007 Khadi and Village Industries Commission (copper-nickel): Seen only UNC/Proof Broken sets mostly. But there was 1 post on FB 2 months back which was a worn out circulation coin (mentioned in the post) & the dealer quoted 500 for it. Problem as the image was blurry & it looked in FSS instead of copper-nickel, but the dealer confirmed it was copper-nickel, but was sold by then!

Vincent

#29
November 06, 2020, 11:57:51 PM
Well, @idiotghost, I have read the comments that you made back in January, and I was thinking of contacting you because I thought you might be interested in this thread. But I see that you found it on your own.

It's nice to hear about your observations! Also, they point in the same direction as what we've been talking about above.

By the way, if you find any particularly interesting coins in these auctions, it might be a good idea to save the pictures. They might be useful for documentation purposes later on.
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