Author Topic: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567  (Read 379 times)

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Offline maudry

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I didn't manage to find anything similar to this coin.
Sword to the right.
Reverse is quite intriguing.
Any help welcome.
Size: 23mm
Weight: 3.93gr
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 10:30:16 PM by maudry »

Online aws22

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Re: Islamic silver coin to ID
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2020, 06:12:17 PM »
Dear maudry, this is not a coin but an Amulet or Talisman for the purpose of giving birth to a boy:
First photo reads in center field: لا اله الا الله وحده لا شريك له , La 'iilah 'iilaa Allah Wahdah la Sharik Lahu meaning, There is no god but Allah alone with no partner.
The margin contains words normally used in such Amulets. There is a sword in the inside margin on the right.
Second photo, shows honeycomb structure of cells with the word “ Boy ولد “ written inside each cell.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline maudry

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Re: Islamic silver coin to ID
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2020, 06:32:54 PM »
Thank you Maythem.
Is it known at when and where such Amulets have been used?

Online aws22

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Re: Amulet or Talisman for the purpose of giving birth to a boy
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2020, 06:49:25 PM »
Thank you maudry, they are used up to now but this one looks old as it is made of copper. Nowadays they use silver.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Amulet or Talisman for the purpose of giving birth to a boy
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 08:54:46 AM »
But isn't this the same type of base dinar that we discussed here? And later, here. The word would not be ولد, 'Walad' = boy, but
ملك, 'Malik' = king. See this coin, that we discussed earlier.

-- Paul

Online aws22

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Re: Amulet or Talisman for the purpose of giving birth to a boy
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 09:12:35 AM »
Thank you Paul, you are right it is " Malik ملك ", I misread it. So I was wrong about calling it Amulet or Talisman, and it is definitely a coin. Sorry about that.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Amulet or Talisman for the purpose of giving birth to a boy
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2020, 11:46:30 AM »
Dear Maythem, thanks for your fast answer. That means this is a Ghorid dinar from the reign of Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, from the earlier days of his reign, about 558-573H (1163-1177 AD). According to p. 191 and 192 of Stephen Album's priceless (and free) Checklist, the gold content is estimated at 10-20%. I suppose the other part of the alloy is not only silver, but also consists of other metals, to give these coins their muddy looks.

Maybe the lettering on the obverse, or what's readable of it, yields some more information. But I would say this is W1754 of Album's checklist, a base dinar issued in Taliqan, not worthless though base, and sought after (by some in any case).

--Paul

Online aws22

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Re: Amulet or Talisman for the purpose of giving birth to a boy
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2020, 09:35:23 AM »
Thank you Paul, you are right about more information on the coin. On the first photo, I can read the words " Saba'a wa sitteen سبع وستين " at 3 O'clock which means "Seven & sixty" as part of the date information. The date is then AH 567/1171 AD, which is in agreement with your suggestion of Ghorid dinar from the reign of Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, from the earlier days of his reign, about 558-573 AH (1163-1177 AD).
Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad (غیاث‌ الدین محمد بن سام‎), was sultan of the Ghurid dynasty from 1163 to 1202 AD. During his reign, the Ghurid dynasty became a world power, which stretched from Gorgan to Bengal.

Maythem
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 07:11:29 PM by aws22 »
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline maudry

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2020, 10:31:17 PM »
Thank you very much for this update.
So I will have to classify this coin somewhere else.  :)

Online aws22

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2020, 04:17:31 AM »
Dear maudry, please note that this coin is not gold "AV-Dinar", but more like AR-Dinar (Silver Dinar).

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2020, 08:38:34 AM »
In fact I'm rather curious about the metal alloy. Album estimates the gold content at 10-20%, but the rest is clearly not all silver, or these coins wouldn't have their decidedly muddy aspect. Nice if one of this type would be tested on its metallurgy...

I'm pasting the four in my collection here for comparison. Of the two that look like gold, one is clearly a fourrée with its dark patches.
Weights respectively: 1 = 3.34 g, 2 = 4.65 g, 3 = 4.21 g, 4 = 3.51 g.

-- Paul

Online aws22

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2020, 09:02:38 AM »
Thank you Paul for the clarification.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Online Figleaf

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2020, 11:21:27 AM »
Gold alloyed with copper will look anywhere from orange to brownish. Gold alloyed with silver will look light yellow (sometimes called "pale gold"). I would say Honey shrank 1 and 2 have a relatively high copper content, designed to make the coin look more like gold. Honey shrank 3 and 4 look like a silver alloy with low gold content. Maudry's coin also looks like it contains relatively more silver.

If the gold content is as low as 10-20%, it is likely that the mint concentrated the gold on the surface. This technology was known in Roman times and was still applied in the 20th century, e.g. on Mexican coins. On worn coins, the upper layer will wear off first and reveal the dominant metal used (compare the "old coppernose" coins of Henry VIII). I think this explains Honey shrank 2 better than a fourée.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2020, 02:31:42 PM »
'Honey shrank', I have to say sorry for this. Because of the honeycomb pattern on the reverse my thoughts were irresistably drawn to the film 'Honey, I shrunk the kids' (1989). Besides, the pictures shrank from 1500 kB to 128 kB. Associations...

Maudry's coin shows green spots that are a giveaway for copper in the alloy. And before I cleaned it, coin nr. 2 had a tinge of green, too. The color is a bit dirty, it doesn't look like just low-gold high-silver like this Buwayhid dinar.
Anyhow: I'm curious about the details of the alloy.

-- Paul


Online Figleaf

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Re: Ghorid - Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad bin Sam, debased AV-Dinar AH567
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2020, 05:56:28 PM »
Don't take my above post in an absolute fashion. Gold with silver doesn't mean there are no other metals involved. It's more like shrinking and the kids playing an important part and Honey a minor, yet functional part ;)

You can get a detailed but non-destructive metal analysis only with expensive equipment. I don't think what's left of the Dutch national coin collection has such access. Your best bet may be contacting Oesho to find out if Leiden University has the machines. If not, we can cast the net wider, but that would involve sending the coins by mail.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.