Author Topic: Trinity Tavern pub token  (Read 139 times)

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Offline brandm24

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Trinity Tavern pub token
« on: May 20, 2020, 12:09:48 PM »
I thought this was an interesting pub token issued by the Trinity Tavern in Dublin. I couldn't nail down a date, but I think 1860 or so? It's listed in the Rice reference as #372. Apparently, there's a second reference on pub tokens by Todd that I'm not familiar with. It's listed in there as #288. The token is octagonal and 26 mm.

An interesting history behind the establishment but I couldn't find much detail. Maybe someone can fill me in on that.

It's located at Trinity St. and Dame Lane and kept the same name until at least 1916. It was noted in a short history that the building was in the area of heavy fighting during the Easter Rising but was undamaged. It was called the Trinity BAR, but I don't know if that's what it was called at the time or not. At some point...1985?...the name was changed to Banker's Bar which is still in business today. I've attached an image of it.

 J.C. Parkes (John C.) on the token references the manufacture of the piece. Apparently, he was a prolific maker of such things and was located at the Coombe in Dublin.

Bruce

       (Token images courtesy of the Black Friar Collection)
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Offline malj1

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 12:41:43 PM »
I found this: 
Irish Tavern or Pub token, Dublin, Trinity Tavern, Trinity Street, 2d, bronze octagon 26mm, Todd 228, Rice 372, good Very Fine (see Dix Noonan Webb, 8th June 2016, lot 1401 £160 hammer) here

And on  Irish tokens
Malcolm
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 04:06:01 PM »
I found this: 
Irish Tavern or Pub token, Dublin, Trinity Tavern, Trinity Street, 2d, bronze octagon 26mm, Todd 228, Rice 372, good Very Fine (see Dix Noonan Webb, 8th June 2016, lot 1401 £160 hammer) here

And on  Irish tokens

I thought there must be other denominations and I see there is.

I looked a bit into the maker of the token and came out a little confused. The token clearly says I.C. Parkes but most references call him John. I know "I" was often used in place of "J" for John back then, so I didn't think twice about it. The link I'm posting says his name was Issac C Parkes so I don't know the truth of it. In any case, he was a highly skilled medalist credited with many important pieces. He also made tradesmen tokens. See more here.   https://www.libraryireland.com/irishartists/isaac-parkes.php

Bruce
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:15:54 PM by malj1 »
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Offline malj1

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2020, 11:51:01 PM »
Yes the maker is most definitely Isaac Parkes.

I can see how this could have happened as the J was written as I in former times and someone has assumed the I was a J leading to the confusion.

See Irish Tavern Tokens where the error is perpetuated even on our own forum.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2020, 11:46:38 AM »
I saw several sources that called him John...a mistake that perpetuates itself as you say. I've run into the problem many times before. Incorrect information becomes gospel because it's been repeated so many times. And I've done it myself...didn't know it was wrong until later.

 My blurb on Philadelphia coppersmith Phillip Apple here on the forum is a good example. Never thought he had a second shop in West Chester and found he didn't. Someone just got their barrel of Apples mixed up. ;D

Here, when researching early pieces, "i" is nearly universally attached to John. Though rarely seen, the only other likely possibilities are Issac and Israel.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2020, 12:56:21 PM »
I saw several sources that called him John...a mistake that perpetuates itself as you say. I've run into the problem many times before. Incorrect information becomes gospel because it's been repeated so many times. And I've done it myself...didn't know it was wrong until later.

Here, when researching early pieces, "i" is nearly universally attached to John. Though rarely seen, the only other likely possibilities are Isaac and Israel.

You can't be schizophrenic, because you are both right. Forrer, Vol. IV, page 360 (see also pp385-388) says:

I. P. Vide ISAAC PARKES. Medallist at Dublin, 1814-1870. His son, J. C. Parkes, from about 1860.


So John C. is junior and Isaac is his dad.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 05:07:53 PM »
You can't be schizophrenic, because you are both right. Forrer, Vol. IV, page 360 (see also pp385-388) says:

I. P. Vide ISAAC PARKES. Medallist at Dublin, 1814-1870. His son, J. C. Parkes, from about 1860.


So John C. is junior and Isaac is his dad.

Peter
That's interesting. So maybe it was the son who did the work. Do you know if he was in the same profession?

 By the way, Peter, I'm very comfortable in my schizophrenia so please don't try to talk me out of it again. ;D

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 09:19:02 PM »
The listing means that both John C Parkes and Isaac Parkes used to use "I P" to sign their design; it follows that both were medallists. The token in the first post was done by John, because dad's C was on the behind, while John's was centre forward. Isaac has a large entry in Forrer. John has nothing, indicating that he found it difficult to follow in his father's footsteps.

BTW, Forrer can be downloaded from the WoC bookshelf.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Trinity Tavern pub token
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2020, 11:35:22 AM »
The Woc bookshelf is a great resource that I'll refer to in the future. Many thanks.

Bruce
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