Gwalior Rupee: Mahadji Rao (1761-94) Ujjain Mint w/flower like mint mark, Km 218

Started by Abhay, November 09, 2009, 01:55:08 PM

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Abhay

Recently, I came across this coin of Ujjain Mint. This has a new mint mark (A flower). I have highlighted it is Red Square.
Can anyone tell me more about this? ???
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Oesho

The mint-mark is not new. It was known, but presumably this particular mark was not illustrated.
I have such coin in my collection, dated AH1188/--.
The preceding coin dated AH 1187 has the regnal year 15 and a 6-petalled flower within the loop of Seen of Jalus.
There is also a rupee listed AH1189/Ry.15, but I don't know what are the marks on that particular issue. The next know date to me is AH1192/Ry.19, which doesn’t has any particular marks except for the usual cluster of dots.
So during a short period of time a flower like symbol has been added, but the significance of it one can only guess.
Perhaps the mint was farmed-out for a while and they may have added their own mark to it. Contracts for farming-out a mint usually lasted for a year and if the State was satisfied with it a new contract (with new conditions) was made for another year.

Rangnath

Thanks Oesho.  I had not heard of contracts for mint out sourcing. That is fascinating. 
In terms of references, I could indicate that this is a variety of Km 218 or that it is Ujjain 03 in Coins of the Sindhias.  Is either OK?
richie

Oesho

Quote from: Rangnath on November 09, 2009, 10:32:00 PM
I could indicate that this is a variety of Km 218 or that it is Ujjain 03 in Coins of the Sindhias.  Is either OK?
Both are correct.

Abhay

Thanks a lot for the information, Mr. Lingen and Mr. Rangnath.

Abhay
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asm

#5
Quote from: Oesho on November 09, 2009, 10:11:06 PM
Perhaps the mint was farmed-out for a while and they may have added their own mark to it. Contracts for farming-out a mint usually lasted for a year and if the State was satisfied with it a new contract (with new conditions) was made for another year.
I was recently offered a rupee of Anand Rao Giakwar KM#27. The seller had a lot of about 15 coins. On detailed examination, I was surprised to see different mint marks on some of these. Hence I picked up 4 coins - RY 7, RY 12, RY 13, RY14. RY 7 has a verical sword / dagger in the 'seen' of the Julus (This looks like the 1/2 Rupee illustrated in the catalogue). The later issues have a horizontal sword below thew Manus....with different mint marks in the 'seen' of the Julus. One is like a flower - basically a circle of petals, one is a circle of dots. etc. Would this be due to the same reason mentioned above - farming out rights of operating the mint? I will try to photograph the coins in a few days (as there is a cyclone nearing and the atmosphere is dark and cloudy since yesterday). Was this a common occurance in the course of coinage struck by the states themselves?
Amit
PS: I am sorry that the question is not exactly related to the topic but it is, in my opinion directly related to the reply of Oesho above. If required, the topic could be split.
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Rangnath

I am enjoying this information Amit and I look forward to your photographs of this series of coins.  When you do so, why not include them in a new post giving reference to this thread?
richie

Salvete

Sorry to join this discussion late - I only noticed the subject when Engipress directed users of another thread here.  Oesho mentioned the similar rupee to the one at the top of this thread, dated 1189.  I have this date and can confirm that it also has the flower mark.  A similar mark is found on some Sipri coins - maybe the contractor moved around to stay ahead of his creditors, or maybe he had a brother?  ;D .  As has been noted many times before, Gwalior Sindhia state has a staggering variety of types and varieties, not all of which can yet be placed in their rightful places in the catalogues, and some long date runs that are crying out for proper documentation.  Dr Bhandere's discussions in a number of recent papers (such as the one about Gen Filose's coins) show us that there is still a lot to learn about Maratha, and particularly Sindhia numismatics.  Isn't this a great hobby?
Salvete
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Figleaf

Quote from: Salvete on September 05, 2010, 10:09:41 AM
Isn't this a great hobby?

Yes!

Maybe some remarks regarding the Dutch experience with farming out coinage help. All coinage was farmed out until the wars of Napoleon. The "mintmasters" were actually businessmen who recognized a good investment. This is also one explanation why pre-1672 coins usually look shoddy. In the case of India, it may have been not so much farming out for reasons of efficiency as a rewards for behaviour useful to the ruler. It was not unknown to be given a source of income as a reward for a year or so. As in the Dutch case, the "mintmaster" had a vested interest in making production as high as possible at the lowest possible cost, a good formula for exploitation of labour.

Dutch mintmasters generally came in two kinds. One kind was the politician-merchant. He owed the job to his social standing and connections. This kind usually worked at a reputable mint for as long as the politics of coinage allowed. They usually did a good job and enriched themselves only legally or at least with the very minimal risk of being found out.

The second kind was the merchant-adventurer, to put it kindly. They drifted from one disreputable mint to another and from one country to another, usually one step ahead of the law, maximizing profits by imitating coins of other lords, shady deals in metals and funny orders from outside parties. Their production of coins they were hired to make was either enormous and lightweight or negligible. A few were hanged, most got more or less rich.

Looking at engipress' coins, I find that it looks weel struck with good dies. That makes a merchant-adventurer less likely, which in turn argues against using it in more jurisdictions. How likely is it that a person who found himself in a position to do a favour to Mahadji Rao, was able to curry favour also in Sipri? Yet, I can think of scenario's, something like a person who claims to have come up with a new coinage technology, which is rejected - after a trial period - in Ujjain, yet he is hired again in Sipri.

There is another possibility. At one point, the toughra's on Turkish coins were completed with a rose. AFAIK, there was no reason for this. Someone just thought it woud be a good idea to have a rose there and nobody said it was a bad idea. What if someone planted a flower on the coins of Gwalior, just so. What if someone else, when he finally noted the flower asked "what's that flower doing there? We never had a flower there before."

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Salvete

Of course it cannot be said that the Indian and Dutch experiences were totally different, amigo.  Some Indian darogas were beheaded for much the same kinds of offences as their Dutch counterparts seem to have perpetrated - lower silver content, reduced weights, and generally 'cooking the books.'  Since Sipri and Ujjain were both under Sindhia, it would be no use a defaulting daroga from one 'escaping' to the other (frying pans and fires leap to mind!) but a transfer might have been arranged 'for family reasons' much as any decent employer might try to help.  Your point about the rose on Ottoman coins could be apposite, and such artistic freedom might have been possible in some places, but I doubt if it was common until very late - say second half of the 19th century in most places.  The most useful distinguishing marks for fans of Indian coins are undoubtedly the mint marks, because coins from several mints would be indistiguishable without them.  Some coins were copied and recopied in maybe four mints or more, and if no mint marks were added, we are at a loss, usually, to say which are which.  There are many examples, but the most familiar again affect Maratha mints, some of which were 'camp' mints and not long-lived.  Jamgaon, for instance, crosses the 'national' boundary between Holkar and Sindhia.
I am sure you are right to suggest that the coin in question is a genuine Ujjain product, but it would just be nice (and could be useful) to know who put the flower there and why.  I do not know, and I do not know if anybody does know.  In many ways, the Indian experience is streets apart from European goings-on, but there are many similarities as well, especially after European authorities began to get involved in the Indian coinage, and were forced to mint a lot of Mughal-style coins themselves.  Colonial coinages are plastered with secret (privy) marks, as you will know, but the British mints and their masters kept decent records, and they are in English - hence the more complete knowledge about them.  Maratha and other state records are good in parts, and it will be advances made by Indians who can investigate those records that will be the most useful in Indian numismatics from now on, I think.  Shailen, for one, but there are many, many more working in Indian institutions now.  The future looks interesting.....
Salvete 
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Abhay

Quote from: Oesho on November 09, 2009, 10:11:06 PM
The mint-mark is not new. It was known, but presumably this particular mark was not illustrated.
I have such coin in my collection, dated AH1188/--.
The preceding coin dated AH 1187 has the regnal year 15 and a 6-petalled flower within the loop of Seen of Jalus.
There is also a rupee listed AH1189/Ry.15, but I don't know what are the marks on that particular issue. The next know date to me is AH1192/Ry.19, which doesn't has any particular marks except for the usual cluster of dots.
So during a short period of time a flower like symbol has been added, but the significance of it one can only guess.
Perhaps the mint was farmed-out for a while and they may have added their own mark to it. Contracts for farming-out a mint usually lasted for a year and if the State was satisfied with it a new contract (with new conditions) was made for another year.

Just got hold of AH 1189 coin, with the similar flower on the reverse. I guess it is the same die, as my earlier coin, but the obverse is shifted, and hence, the date can be seen clearly.

Abhay
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Figleaf

An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.