Author Topic: British dog tags?  (Read 841 times)

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Offline eurocoin

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2020, 04:53:35 PM »
The second dog tag appears to be of this Stanley Chapman who was in the Royal Field Artillery. Further information and his medal card from the National Archives:



« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 05:03:53 PM by eurocoin »

Offline FosseWay

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2020, 07:15:39 PM »
I'd had the same thought as bagerap about the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, where the rank/profession of Chief Engineer could have accounted for CE. But the medal card shown by eurocoin is much more convincing. CE may, once again, be Church of England.

Regarding the medal card, it seems he transferred from the Royal Field Artillery to the Royal Engineers. In both cases he was the equivalent of a private (gunner in the artillery, sapper in the engineers).

Offline brandm24

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2020, 08:02:52 PM »
Perhaps Royal Fleet Auxiliary which is a merchant fleet operated by the Ministry of Defence. Personnel wear Royal Navy uniform and are subject to RN regulations and discipline.
If that's the case, maybe Chapman is the name of a ship he served on.

I just had another thought. Since the coin has two holes drilled in it it looks to have been attached to something rather than worn on a chain or lanyard as dog tags generally are.

Thanks for your input.

Bruce

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 12:03:50 AM »
First are you sure its George VI? it should be George V for WW1 ??? ...else he could of course made it much later.

The name I read as Chapman.S which fits Stanley Chapman nicely. As does the number on the medal card. (These medals BTW were known unofficially as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred after a popular newspaper cartoon of the time)

As for the two holes, I believe these were used to sew to their kit bags for identification.
Malcolm
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Offline brandm24

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2020, 12:34:48 PM »
The second dog tag appears to be of this Stanley Chapman who was in the Royal Field Artillery. Further information and his medal card from the National Archives:




Thanks, eurocoin, that's definitely the man.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2020, 12:44:56 PM »
First are you sure its George VI? it should be George V for WW1 ??? ...else he could of course made it much later.

The name I read as Chapman.S which fits Stanley Chapman nicely. As does the number on the medal card. (These medals BTW were known unofficially as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred after a popular newspaper cartoon of the time)

As for the two holes, I believe these were used to sew to their kit bags for identification.
I rechecked the coin, Mal, and it is a George Vl Penny. That would make it 1936 or after, so the tag must have been made as a souvenir. Chapman served only from 1916 until 1920 according to the records supplied by eurocoin. Maybe a 20 year anniversary piece?

I remember while researching American Civil War dog tags awhile back I came across quite a few pieces made in later years. Some were quite elaborate, listing name, rank, unit served with, and the actual battles that the person fought in. These weren't actual dog tags, but were remembrance pieces. They had the look of dog tags but could be confusing to some.

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2020, 12:51:40 PM »

I remember while researching American Civil War dog tags awhile back I came across quite a few pieces made in later years. Some were quite elaborate, listing name, rank, unit served with, and the actual battles that the person fought in. These weren't actual dog tags, but were remembrance pieces. They had the look of dog tags but could be confusing to some.

Bruce

Somewhat like these Short Snorters given to me by a friend a few years ago.
Malcolm
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Offline brandm24

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 03:10:47 PM »
Short snorters are interesting and a lot of fun to research. I've seen some but don't own any. At one time I had a decent collection of currency, mostly US obsolete notes and private scrip but nothing military...MPC's or sutler notes.

Bruce
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Offline eurocoin

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 09:58:07 PM »
Thanks, eurocoin, that's definitely the man.

Bruce

You are welcome. If you happen to buy them, there is likely much more info on Stanley Chapman to be found, so if you wish I can then dive further into it, although I can imagine you may just as well wish to do the research yourself. I have seen some very interesting and well researched posts of you.

Offline brandm24

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2020, 11:22:07 AM »
You are welcome. If you happen to buy them, there is likely much more info on Stanley Chapman to be found, so if you wish I can then dive further into it, although I can imagine you may just as well wish to do the research yourself. I have seen some very interesting and well researched posts of you.
Unfortunately, I didn't win the lot with the tags we've been discussing but did win one with other British counterstamps. I thought I had a strong bid in but it wasn't enough. I've noticed, especially in the last year or two, the prices for counterstamped coins have risen noticeably. That of course suggests that their popularity has increased as well.

Thanks for all your help, eurocoin, and your kind remarks.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2020, 11:46:47 AM »
Here's another tag I thought I'd add here instead of starting a new thread.

It's struck on an WW I era English penny so is probably from then. I think "Ord Sea" might mean ordinary seaman (?) which would make it naval. I don't know the meaning of "WES"...maybe the abbreviation for his unit or ship?

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2020, 01:22:51 PM »
I found three results: WES Weapon Engineering Stores; WES Weapon Equipment Stores WES; Weapons Effect Simulator.

I think we can discount the last as it doesn't appear to suggest its use in WW1
Malcolm
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Offline FosseWay

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 02:24:46 PM »
I've done a bit of trawling through the naval records available on various family history websites and have only found one record that completely fits, i.e. two first names beginning with J and A. If you only look for J obviously the numbers become unmanageable.

The one that fits is John Allan Upton who served in the Merchant Navy and was eligible for the Mercantile Marine Medal. Attached is his medal card from the National Archives. Unfortunately it is rather sparse on details, such as no date of birth. It does, however, include an address at Parkbeg, Saskatchewan, Canada.

This sailor is pretty much certainly the same person as a John Allan Upton born in the third quarter of 1880 in Guisborough, North Yorkshire, who emigrated to Canada around 1906 and appears in the 1921 Canadian census at Parkbeg Village, Swift Current, Saskatchewan. He is living with his parents, wife and four children, the eldest of whom was born in England, the rest in Sask. He and his father are postmen; his mother is the postmistress. He is also the census enumerator for the district, so one can hopefully rely on the information given about his own family! I've found them in 1911 as well, although the page is almost illegible. He was a farmer then.

He is buried in Mountain View Cemetery, Vancouver, and his dates are given as 17 July 1880 - 25 Jan 1962.

It's clearly not a given that your man with the tag is the same as this John Allan Upton, but there must be a reasonable chance.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2020, 04:15:10 PM »
I think that is another JA Upton. I think it belonged to James Arthur Brook Upton. A record about him can be viewed here.
It is odd that the initial B is not on the dog tag (possibly lack of space), however the service number seems to match as does the rating.

Born 20 August 1897 in Halifax, Yorkshire. Brown hair, grey eyes. First a dyer and later a general textile worker before he enlisted. Served on the HMS Vivid I and the HMS Galatea. He started as ordinary seaman on the HMS Vivid I and after also having served some time on the HMS Galatea became able seaman.

The reason why he was discharged and the part with 'dispersed' I did not understand/cannot read. Maybe someone can explain this. WES remains a bit of a mystery though, although the suggestions of Malcolm may well be correct.

Possibly other members can find more information about this person. I can now not look further into it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 04:26:33 PM by eurocoin »

Offline FosseWay

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Re: British dog tags?
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2020, 04:59:28 PM »
Ah, yes, well done - that will be the right person alright. I tried searching on the service number but got nowhere.

As to "Dispersed" - this is a common term used about soldiers/sailors/airmen who are returned to civilian life after the armistice. I'm not clear what the difference between "dispersed" and "demobilised" is. It may be that people who were "demobilised" were still retained on a reserve list and could be called up again directly should the need arise, while "dispersed" people were returned  to civilian life permanently and would need to be redrafted from scratch, as it were.

The reason for discharge is "Shore on demob" - i.e. disembarked and demobilised. Basically his services were no longer required as there was no longer a war to fight.