Author Topic: Not sure but I think Iraq.  (Read 266 times)

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Offline gpimper

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Not sure but I think Iraq.
« on: April 06, 2020, 05:39:46 AM »
Nice little coin.  Copper (mostly), 2 cm, 2.1g.  I'm sure I've got the orientation all wrong.  I think, based on the weight it's probably...ok, I won't think :-)   Could that be Elymain?
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 11:53:39 AM »
Definitely islamic, not from Elymais.

My first impression was Mamluk, but it seems to be too evenly struck: second impression was possibly a Juchid (Golden Horde) copper pul, but they are normally about 1.5 gm and 15-17 mm.

I am going to have to search a bit on this, but meantime I've re-orientated the images (not sure which is obverse or reverse though).

Alan

Offline gpimper

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2020, 06:41:59 PM »
Thanks for the orientation (I knew I had that wrong).  I've been looking and think another possibility could be Umayyad Caliphate but I haven't found a match yet.
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline Afrasi

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2020, 07:59:10 PM »
Ayyubid?

Offline gpimper

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2020, 10:30:05 PM »
Ayyubids is a possibility but from what I've seen they tend to be off struck, especially with the smaller denominations.  I'm tending to Alan's call on the Golden Horde but came across Seljuqs of Rum....probably not, still looking!
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline saro

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 02:49:08 PM »
my guess :  Kwarezmshah / broad dirham of Muhammad al-din Tekish abu al-fateh
I think that parts of his titles are present on both faces :
 "...wa al-din... / و الدین " in center of right picture
" ...fath ..." in center  and "تکشه/ Tekish " at bottom of left picture
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline gpimper

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 11:41:55 PM »
Saro, I'm amazed that you could glean that...that coin is pretty worn.  Thank you!  I always appreciate your knowledge.
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline saro

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 10:34:34 AM »
Thank you gpimper  :)
I hope that could be confirm by members; it's what I see :
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline THCoins

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2020, 11:27:35 AM »
I have no better hypothesis than Saro at the moment. But i see some problems with this solution.
First: If the text is read as "wa al-din" for the Khwarezmshah, then the text fragment before that should be "Ala al-dunya". That does not seem to fit with the textline above the "wa al-din" fragment.
Second: The Alif of "al-din" has a clear descender curve, making it look more like a ra or zayn.

Alternative: instead of "wa al-din"might it be part of "Nasir li-din" ? With "al-imam.." in the line above that.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 12:30:13 PM by THCoins »

Offline saro

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2020, 03:00:38 PM »
I agree with you, Anthony : "..wa al-din .." is suspect due to the "alif" which looks very like a "ra" or "zain", "nasir ..li din" is an option (apart the Caliph's name ?).
Could be Tekish bin il-Arslan instead of Muhammad bin Tekish  ??? as on this gold dinar :
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline THCoins

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 10:17:47 PM »
I doubt the Tekish, i'd rather go for (bin) Kaykhusraw? So, that would brings us back to the Seljuks.

Offline gpimper

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 11:08:47 PM »
Seljuks would not surprise me.  Only thing is the size and weight.  I've not found anything that fits yet.  Zengids might be a possibility (around 1180)?  You folks know Islamic script much better than I and I truly appreciate you taking the time and effort to help figure this little bugger our.  The research is what I like :-)  I've been working on another coin but it can wait (unless you'd like to see it ;-)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 11:23:13 PM by gpimper »
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline THCoins

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2020, 08:31:14 AM »
Your coin is very worn, so could very well have lost half its weight.
I think the best solution could be: Izz ad-Din Kayka'us I b. Kaykhusraw. Compare with this one on Zeno. Not identical, but in layout and calligraphy style a very good match.

Offline saro

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2020, 02:19:52 PM »
Exact Anthony ! I just find this other one
That was a tentative and... I failed...It wasn't "Tekish" at bottom but a part of "Khushrau  :-\ , only the period was the good one, these two rulers lived at the same time  :D ... (ala al-din Mhd ibn Tekish :597-616AH / Kay ka'us bin Kay Khusrau : 608-616 AH ....)
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline THCoins

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Re: Not sure but I think Iraq.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2020, 02:56:44 PM »
Don't think you failed Saro. You gave the first passes that enabled us to get there in the end !