Author Topic: token with coat of arms, and a monogram  (Read 1074 times)

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Offline jezuss

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token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« on: February 23, 2020, 11:10:24 PM »
token with coat of arms, and a monogram.
35mm

i have 3 of them with slightly different pictures.
maybe hand made ?


Offline Abhay

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 07:32:27 AM »
Could be "Love Tokens".

For more on Love Tokens, please refer the following link:

What Are Love Tokens? | Love Token Society

Abhay
INVESTING IN YESTERDAY

Offline jezuss

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 10:21:48 AM »
these tokens are not metal.
they look nacreous.
1.2 mm thick
3 gram

Offline eurocoin

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 10:58:33 AM »
I have been intrigued by these pieces for a long time. Numerous heraldic and geneaologic experts have had a look at them but none of them so far had the answer. In fact most did not have a clue of which place or family the arms could be. Furthermore I have looked at thousands of registrations of Dutch and Flemish family arms, all of the ones that are publicly available in specialised databases, but was unable to find this one.

A few people commented that the style looks German or Austrian to them but that in Germany or Austria that type of crown would never be used. About that crown someone mentioned that it is a crown used on the coat of arms to show that the person was a Marquis. Personally I have doubts about that.

The fact that the engraving is a bit simplistic makes things even more complicated. The supporters of the arms appear to be griffins. In the first and third quarter of the arms there seems to be a one-headed eagle. A pair of crossed somethings in the insecutcheon, possibly keys or arrows. On the bend dogs, sighthounds or leopards are depicted. Based on the lines on the arms we know that the colour of the second and fourth quarters is red.

Possibly they were the contents of a screw medal (schroefpenning)?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:48:21 AM by eurocoin »

Offline malj1

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2020, 11:29:54 AM »
See Antique Gaming Chips for information on this type of counter.

Also History of Gaming Counters

While here are three similar counters made for Queen Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz - Queen Consort and wife of King George III
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2020, 05:24:29 PM »
Did you buy them from a Dutch dealer? In which place is the dealer or fair located where you bought them? Were the other tokens in the lot they were part of Dutch? Did the seller mainly sell Dutch tokens or also pieces of other countries?

Offline jezuss

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2020, 05:58:33 PM »
my computer says : it's more than 10 years ago, and i payed 50 eurocents for all three on internet.
probably ebay, qoop or delcampe.
i don't keep records of who sells them to me.
and i don't remember any more...



Offline eurocoin

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2020, 05:04:45 PM »
50 euro cents for all 3 appears to have likely been a very good purchase.  :)

Because of the crown on the coat of arms, and the fact that these kind of counters were usually being produced on order of aristocrats and nobel families, it is well possible that the coat of arms is that of a nobel family. 

I contacted the Nobility in the Netherlands Foundation, an organisation I have been following for a few years. Its director referred me to the Supreme Council of Nobility (Hoge Raad van Adel) for help. I have contacted them but as yet not heard back. The council is currently in a complicated situation partially because of corona. If they don't reply it can be tried again later in the year.

Furthermore I have seen that a library in Tilburg has a collection of specialised catalogues of Dutch and foreign family coat of arms of nobles. Because of corona it is currently not possible to go there but if later in the year the solution has not yet been found, I will check them.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2020, 11:14:50 PM »



Some time ago a reply was received from the Supreme Council of Nobility. They informed me that the coat of arms is indeed that of a family of (high ranking) nobility. A characteristic of this that can be seen in the coat of arms is the ermine mantle.

The crown is indeed of a type that since 1816 may in the Netherlands officially may only be used specifically on the coat of arms of a Marquiss, however because of several reasons, although it is possible they had the title of Marquiss, the crown can in this case not be seen as conclusive evidence that this was indeed the case. It is possible they had a different title.

The Supreme Council believes that the animal in the second and fourth quarter is a lion. The second and fourth quarters are identical to the coat of arms of the family Hennin dit Cuvillers. Because of this the Supreme Council thinks that there may be a family connection between the family Hennin dit Cuvillers and the one that used the coat of arms that can be seen on these pieces. This information may prove useful in future research.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2020, 07:40:30 AM »
You may be interested in downloading this book Google translate does a reasonable job on the original site.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2020, 12:10:05 PM »



Further research to the possible link provided by the Supreme Council of Nobility was not successful. Other research however has shown that it is very likely that the coat of arms is that of the German counts of Von Callenberg. The only thing that still bothers me is the small flower that is missing on the tokens. The information was provided to me by a German expert. The low quality of the engraving makes it rather complicated.


Offline Figleaf

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2020, 08:57:05 AM »
Yes, that is indeed likely. I was not too worried about the missing rosette in the breast shield either, until I saw it in combination with the crown. A count would normally not have used a crown at all (it may have been granted as a privilege). The Callenberg arms you found uses a triple crowned helmet as a helmet sign, using a duke's crown. Helmet signs and mantles do not have the same status as crowns. They are more like decorations. Motto and supporters have a somewhat higher status, but they can be left out also. The part that counts (pun unintended) are the arms themselves and if they are covered by a crown, it is part of the arms. The crown used on the piece is an elector's crown, far above the station of a mere count.

The Von Callenberg dynasty died out in 1850, when Clementine Kunigunde Charlotte Olympia Louise, Gräfin von Callenberg died. She was married to Ludwig Carl Hans Erdmann von Pückler, Graf von Pückler, Freiherr von Groditz, who did not inherit the Callenberg title, but used Pückler Muskau instead. Therefore, the arms were void after 1850. This may have been the reason they were used on the piece. The crown and rosette may have been commercial changes or they may have been a built-in defence against anyone still wanting to prevent spurious use of the arms or both.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: token with coat of arms, and a monogram
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2020, 10:22:17 AM »



Having looked at over 10,000 coat of arms of European noble families in dozens of books, by far nothing ever came as close as this one. Only the missing rosette is annoying. I add a different example of the coat of arms above. The crown on the coat of arms that I show above differs from that on the tokens, however variants of their arms exist and I know that the Von Callenbergs also used the same crown as can be seen on the tokens. The image above also shows that the supporters of the arms of Von Callenberg are both griffins, which too matches with the tokens.

Of course on the reverse of the tokens there appears to be a CC monogram (or at least that is how I interpret it), so there too Callenberg fits in.

I have read that these counters were very often being ordered from China alongside custom-made porcelain which too had the family coat of arms on it. Unfortunately I have not (yet) been able to find sales of Von Callenberg porcelain. If such porcelain exists it would be interesting to see if on that too the rosette is missing from the arms.