Author Topic: Anyone know horses here?  (Read 480 times)

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Offline brandm24

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Anyone know horses here?
« on: February 09, 2020, 11:16:37 AM »
This came to me in a lot of old British counterstamps. I don't have the coin here to measure, but I think it's probably an old copper penny. I'd appreciate help on this one.

Other than the two horse heads, I'm having trouble identifying anything else. My best guess is a clover leaf just above the first portrait on the obverse(?). The "L" shape to the right of the first horse head is maybe the edge of the saddle...just a wild guess on that one. The rest of the stamps, including the ones on the reverse, are a mystery to me. I don't think there's any particular meaning to the stamps. They just appear to be random.

Does anyone have any ideas? Many thanks.

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2020, 11:10:17 PM »
When you say "an old copper penny" co you mean a British penny or and American large cent? ???

I think I see an exergue line (there is almost a date there?) and have rotated to suit but no idea other other than I think I see a shamrock behind the horse.
Malcolm
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2020, 08:47:52 AM »
The combination of two horses and the clover leaf reminds me of horse racing, popular in Ireland, but not really unknown in the UK either ;) Someone's "lucky penny"?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2020, 09:33:52 AM »
When you say "an old copper penny" co you mean a British penny or and American large cent? ???

I think I see an exergue line (there is almost a date there?) and have rotated to suit but no idea other other than I think I see a shamrock behind the horse.
Yes. a British penny, Mal. The lot of about 7 or 8 coins were all British pennies and described that way by the seller.

I also noticed the possibility of an exergue line and date, but the coin is so beat up it's hard to tell. I'm glad you saw a shamrock too...thought it might have been the cheap beer I was drinking. :)

I'm going to look at the coin again more closely and see if I can make out anything else. Many thanks.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 09:38:26 AM »
The combination of two horses and the clover leaf reminds me of horse racing, popular in Ireland, but not really unknown in the UK either ;) Someone's "lucky penny"?

Peter
Horse racing would be a good bet, Peter. If it were carried by someone as a "lucky penny", I hope they fared better than the penny.  ;D

Bruce
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Offline Manzikert

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2020, 10:56:18 AM »
I see an anchor at the bottom of Mal's picture, and I think the smaller stamp above left (and on the other side as well) is of a paddle steamer under sail to the left.

Alan

Offline brandm24

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2020, 12:36:15 PM »
I see an anchor at the bottom of Mal's picture, and I think the smaller stamp above left (and on the other side as well) is of a paddle steamer under sail to the left.

Alan
I think you're right about the anchor, Alan. I can see it now. Also what looks like a sailing ship. Any ideas about the possible exergue and date that Mal pointed out?

Looks like someone just randomly stamped images on a coin. These things are always fun to identify or at least to speculate about.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2020, 01:19:13 PM »
Agreed on the anchor (great call Manzikert) and the sailing ship, even though the sprit sail is heavily exaggerated. The rest of the rigging reminds me of a schooner like the America, though the mizzen mast is a bit too low for her. However, that does provide a link between the two sides: racing, whether with horses or with yachts.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline malj1

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2020, 11:09:30 PM »
Here is the obverse image enlarged and enhanced.

I also see something between the horses and below the shamrock.
Malcolm
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2020, 11:58:22 PM »
The only thing I can think of is it's part of the saddle

Bruce.
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 06:54:35 AM »
I'm with Mal on this one. You can guess the size and shape of the punch by the horse's head on the right. That gives you an idea of where it stopped on the left head. Between the two is a prior counterpunch, probably not at the same angle as the horsies. The two parallel lines end in two arches of different size.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 10:37:45 AM »
I'm going to pull the coin today and really look more closely at it. I don't remember how thoroughly I examined it when I first got it. I'll put it under my scope and see if that helps.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2020, 07:08:48 PM »
I examined the coin in all kinds of light, from different angles, and under various degrees of magnification. I now know the coin is a George III Halfpenny, likely  dated 1770. The diameter is 30 mm, the size of halfpennies minted only in the years 1770-1775. After that the size was increased to 31 mm. I can make out the "S" of "Georgivs" and "III" very faintly. The last number of the date appears to be zero, making 1770 the only date it could be. I'm not sure about the date but 1770 is my best guess.

On the reverse the right side "fan" is a horse's mane, something I hadn't picked up on before. The rest of his face shows faintly but clear enough. To the left is a sailing ship and centered under both of them is an anchor.

On the obverse just above the first horse is a shamrock and slightly to the right is another anchor. This stamp is badly degraded, but has some of the characteristics of the clearer stamp on the reverse. The two vertical lines under the shamrock are still a bit of a mystery, but I believe they represent the stem of the shamrock. Below the first horse is another sailing ship. A small left facing "U" shaped mark right in front of the second horse's muzzle is a mystery. Not even a guess on that one.

I think this is the best I can do trying to identify everything. Now if we only knew what they all meant.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2020, 09:27:37 PM »
Pretty good, Bruce. I am especially impressed that you identified the host. With the third horse and second anchor you got practically everything figured out and it is clear that what little is left is not part of the original design.

We have no chance of figuring out what the owner of a few punches wanted to express 250 years ago, of course, but that leaves me free to make the wildest of guesses. How about this: they were not punches the vandal was trying out on this poor, innocent coin, but leather stamps. They were meant to decorate horse gear with lucky/sporty symbols. Van Dale had inherited them, didn't know what they were for and tried the first thing coming up in the dusty, dark place between his ears.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline malj1

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Re: Anyone know horses here?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2020, 09:30:17 PM »
They may have used a contemporary counterfeit halfpenny as these were fairly common at the time.

Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.