Author Topic: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint  (Read 519 times)

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Offline maudry

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Interesting civic copper / Marv mint
« on: January 30, 2020, 09:53:01 PM »
Not sure about what it is on this one, but it makes me think of a crab.
Size: 22mm
Weight: 5.12gr
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 04:03:05 PM by saro »

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2020, 01:27:11 PM »
Not at all a common coin  :applause:  I see an elephant charging down upon somebody  (the mint master may be...  :D)
the mintname is a challenge !
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline maudry

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2020, 09:02:24 PM »
Thank you for your comment.
You see an elefant, I see a crab and the seller announced a rabbit...

I forgot to mention that it is a very thin folded flan. This could point to Afghanistan?
It has been folded two times.

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2020, 09:05:12 AM »
It's well a rabbit indeed ! and not an elephant... :-\
As you say, this shape with a thin and folded flan suggests an afghan origin, however it's difficult to  find an agreement for a mintname with the remaining parts of letters  ???
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2020, 09:46:54 AM »
From the isolated "wav" at 11 o'clock and the "mim" at 12 , I think that this could be a civic copper of the city of Marv (or Merv) " مرو  ", a safavid city located N-E of Mashhad and today in Turkmenistan.
Which, if I am correct ( ???) hasn't been yet reported .  :applause:
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline maudry

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2020, 10:41:07 PM »
Great attribution! I would never have recognized the rabbit.
Thank you very much.

Offline andyg

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 11:23:47 PM »
I meant to post something on this being likely from Merv but I never got around to checking on Zeno (sorry)

I think this rabbit might be from Merv rather than an open hand -
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,24073.msg159428.html#msg159428
suggestions welcome...
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2020, 06:19:33 PM »
Yes Andyg, I agree, it's a rabbit and not an open hand. Wether it is Merv is a question ??? it is possible to detect :" zarb falus.." but, I'm afraid, nothing else.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint ?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 12:17:06 PM »
I am please to confirm mint & transcription : this coin is listed by S. Album under n°1411in the Vol.9 of the "Sylloge of Islamic Coins in the Ashmolean".
" ND, Hare to left /late 13th C- early 14thC "
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline aws22

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint ?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 03:31:33 PM »
Great finding, thank you Saro; the Hijri date on the coin listed by S. Album (first photo) reads " 813 ۸۱۳ " which is equivalent to 1411 AD. Therefore on your original post, the date at same position (first photo) looks like " 816 ۸۱۶ " which is equivalent to 1414 AD.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint ?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 04:02:21 PM »
Thank you Maythem.
I don't see any date or part of it  :-\  , this coin is listed as "ND" (undated).
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline aws22

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 04:39:39 PM »
Thank you Saro, you are right there is no date, only the rabbit standing long ears.

Maythem
Coin collecting has a curious name. It is also called the "Hobby of Kings".

Offline maudry

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2020, 10:30:24 PM »
Perfect match.
Thank you again.
The Ashmolean coin has also been struck on a folded flan whith apparently around 2.75 layers as mine.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2020, 08:44:06 AM »
Great co-operation once again, with magical results. I am so impressed that saro got the rabbit right already in reply #2 as well as a complete id for what is a really difficult coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Interesting civic copper / Marv mint
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 03:14:28 PM »
Thank you Peter.

Looking at Marv history, we learn that the city, located on silk road, was the capital of Seljuk sultans and probably the biggest in the world in years 1200 AD with a population of 1 million it has been invaded by Gengis Khan in 1221 AD and never recovered after it has been destroyed by mongols (who are said to have put to death 700000 persons...). The city became a khanate and even in the very early XIVth century AD was ruled by a christian archbishopric of the Eastern Church under Kartids control (rulers of Herat), themselves vassals of Ilkhanids.
Later, in 1505 AD (911 AH) the Uzbeks occupied Marv and wereexpelled in 916 AH by the safavid Isma'il Shah; except for short periods, it remains in persian hands till 1785 AD.

The circular ornaments of this coin make me think of a christian influence with crosses around the hare and others on the other face which look very like chrisms, a symbol very common on eastern christian coins) .
 I wonder if this coin couldn't belong to issues of these archbishops ? the hare itself could fit with a christian symbolism.  ???
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 03:28:09 PM by saro »
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)