Author Topic: Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands  (Read 124 times)

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Offline Pellinore

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Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands
« on: February 15, 2020, 12:56:49 AM »
This is an early 11th century coin of the area where I was born and grew up - not many leagues away - in Tiel (Thiel in German). It's a penny of the Holy Roman Empire issued by one of the emperors Henry in one of the hundreds of mints of that vast Imperial realm. Coins like these are pretty well looking the same with the same weight, thin and nicely round. It has a facing head on the obverse and a mint name on the reverse, in the style of Cologne coins of this period. The inscription is '(T)IELI/ AN'. However, apparently it is a contemporary imitation issued in a mint not far from Tiel. Hard to tell how things worked in those days.

Holy Roman Empire, denarius, after 1046. Imitation of the Tiel type under Henry III. Netherlands. Tiel/ Zaltbommel. Henry III (1039-1056) or shortly after. Obv. Frontal head with crosier. Rev. (T)IELI/ AN (N mirrored). 18.5 mm, 0.77 gr. Dannenberg 1276.

-- Paul


Online Figleaf

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Re: Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2020, 09:41:15 AM »
Excellent portrait! TFP.

The expert on the coins of Tiel, Arie van Herwijnen, while not inscribed as a member, often helps determining medieval coins for WoC. His site gives excellent information in a historical page and a very extensive picture gallery.

The obverse, with the crosier at left, should have had a cross-topped staff at right. There is a mark there that might have taken it off, but I wonder if it ever was there. The reverse, with what looks like a variety of the text .B. / IELI / .AN (meant as Bona Tiele, compare Ilisch 3.17, Hatz 83 and 84 in the gallery), is typical for the imperial issues (no staffs on the portrait side), though. The inverse N is common on medieval coins, an acceptable error.

I have taken the liberty to write Arie about this coin.

Peter



An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Online Figleaf

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Re: Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2020, 10:59:13 AM »
Here is Arie's reply (my translation, all errors are mine).

Peter

Pellinore is right, it is Dannenberg 1276 and that type only has a crosier. There is nothing on the other side of the head.

Ilisch lists this coin as 4.17.2, there are a few of this type on my site. Other references are Salmo 26:7 and Hatz 87.

By the way, I don't believe that Ilisch main type 4 was struck in Zaltbommel, just because the bishop of Utrecht had the right to coin there, granted in the year 999. If so, the coins should only show crosiers and there are various types with only cross topped staffs or a mix of crosiers and cross topped staffs.

In addition to a royal court, Tiel had a large monastery. In my opinion, main type 4 is simply struck in Tiel, possibly financially supported by the clergy, which would explain the crosiers on the
coins.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2020, 07:26:08 PM »
Thanks Figleaf, thank you Arie for your answer. Zaltbommel is just a theory I believe; a mint near Tiel is the idea. In Tiel is also a possibility, but this particular coin shows a facing head with a crosier - a bishop's staff. You would expect a bishop as lord of the mint then, wouldn't you?

-- Paul

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Re: Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2020, 10:21:27 PM »
If the minting right is given to the bishop, the bishop could put his head on the coin and the crosier would identify the head as that of a bishop. If the minting right was given to the city, the city could use a symbol, like a city wall with three towers or a picture of the suzerain, in this case the emperor, on the coin. The crown the head is wearing is not of a church official, so the crosier has a different function.

Arie's solution is that the Tiel monastery supported the city minting. This is quite possible. Monasteries had thick walls and solid doors. Lay monks, second sons of noblemen ruling as abbots and their servants were allowed to handle arms and the buildings were easy to defend, perfect for a mint and its stocks of metal. Additionally, religious institutions could choose to function like banks, so the monastery may have financed setting up the mint or the coin distribution system.

Not sure what the cross-topped staff was about. The cross is square, so it looks more like a sceptre than like a religious symbol. Prince-bishops could use such mixed symbolism, but I don't think Tiel had one. Maybe it refers to the city?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Holy Roman Empire: Tiel in the Netherlands
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2020, 10:45:34 PM »
Quite plausible, yes. (This coin doesn't have a cross-topped staff, only a (bishop's) crosier).

-- Paul