Author Topic: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book  (Read 853 times)

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Offline taylorandheaton

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2019, 11:07:01 AM »
I cannot check the entry in the "old" Menzel catalog as I have stored it and only have the new edition at hand now.

First of all the attribution to Kiau Chau is daubtful as tokens from this area are denominated in cents, not in pfennig as stated on the holder. In the newest Menzel (2018) the token is not listed for Kiau Chau. It is listed however as number 2951 with issuer Paul Herpig, owner of a clothing store in Berlin. This token exists with several varieties of the reverse.

I attach a picture of one of these tokens.

These tokens are also listed, and illustrated, in the book: Berlin Marken und Zeichen by W. Hasselman (1987).This book also lists a small medal, identifying the man on the obverse of this token as: Schuster Wilhelm Voigt, Der Falsche Hauptmann von Köpenick. This is a shoemaker who dressed up as an officer of the German Army and commanded a group of soldiers to assist him in confiscating the money box in the town hall of Köpenick near Berlin. He was later arrested and his story was publicised widely and aroused lots of hilarious comments.

Can you post a picture of the reverse?
Kiautschou used dollars/cents after 1907.



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Offline taylorandheaton

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2019, 11:13:10 AM »
Attached used one stamp 25pfn


Maybe Menzel made a  big mistake before or P.H. stood for other meaning?
 


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Offline taylorandheaton

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2019, 11:21:59 AM »
4287.1 is a 18mm beer token from j. hahn in the catalog from 2005
in the catalog from 2014 it is a 20.5mm beer token from brauerei k gotschalk.
Many thank!Reference book should have fixed ref numbers. Otherwise,very confusion and not enough professional!


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Offline taylorandheaton

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2019, 11:37:57 AM »
Another sample postcard (1906 Tsingtau,Kiautschou)


So if its Kiautschou token,must be an early issued token ,no late 1906/07?Not sure how Menzel got its Kiautschou info for this token?!


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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2019, 01:10:17 PM »
Most excellent teamwork, gentlemen! I think Paul Herpig is credible. A Berliner celebrating the Kapitän von Köpenick is very credible also.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Henk

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2019, 04:22:02 PM »
I mentioned this
the attribution to Kiau Chau is doubtful as tokens from this area are denominated in cents, not in pfennig as stated on the holder.
because of the tokens stating a denomination from Kiau Chau all state "cents" no tokens from this area denominated "pfennig" or "Mark" are known.

The official currency in Kiau Chau was Chinese Dollars. The banknotes issued there by the Deutsch Asiatische Bank were denominated in dollars and Taels. The coins issued for this area in 1909, but scruck until 1913, have the denomination of 5 or 10 cents.

Resulting from the Boxer uprising in 1900/01 there were a large number of German sailors and soldiers stationed in Kiau Chau. For this reason the German post also sold stamps payable and denominated in Marks/pfennig. These were issued until about 1907.

There may of course have been tokens denominated in Marks/pfennig in use in Kiau Chau. None are known however.

Offline taylorandheaton

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2019, 03:27:26 AM »
I mentioned this  because of the tokens stating a denomination from Kiau Chau all state "cents" no tokens from this area denominated "pfennig" or "Mark" are known.

The official currency in Kiau Chau was Chinese Dollars. The banknotes issued there by the Deutsch Asiatische Bank were denominated in dollars and Taels. The coins issued for this area in 1909, but scruck until 1913, have the denomination of 5 or 10 cents.

Resulting from the Boxer uprising in 1900/01 there were a large number of German sailors and soldiers stationed in Kiau Chau. For this reason the German post also sold stamps payable and denominated in Marks/pfennig. These were issued until about 1907.

There may of course have been tokens denominated in Marks/pfennig in use in Kiau Chau. None are known however.
Thanks Again,Henk!
No obvious evidence to find common Pfn tokens in Kiautschou,but had some few early Pfn tokens on special occasions.



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Offline taylorandheaton

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2019, 03:31:11 AM »
Thanks Again,Henk!
No obvious evidence to find common Pfn tokens in Kiautschou,but had some few early Pfn tokens on special occasions.



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Just a S.M.S token sample,also had more SmS samples used by Pfn in Kiautschou



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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2019, 07:12:23 AM »
The two very interesting tokens you show do not mention the currency. The 50 was used on-board SMS Emden, therefore it is practically sure that it is denominated in Mark/pfennig. The casino was likely to have been on-shore. That makes it more probable that it was denominated in Dollars/cents, unless the casino gave access to Reichsmarine staff only.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline jezuss

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2019, 09:27:34 AM »
31663. UNTEROFFIZIER-KASINO MI
MATR. ARTL. ABTLG.
KIAUTSCHOU
o.J., bds. (WZ), o.O.
1 10 Ms, 20,2 mm 75.-
Anm.: Unter (WZ) auf Vs.
klein "V."

i can't find the second token.

Offline Henk

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Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2019, 12:46:36 PM »
The second one is Menzel (2018): 38106.5
KANTINE S.M.S. EMDEN. No Year, Reverse Value
5: value 50, Brass, 25,1 mm It is valued at  € 35.-

The ship money is listed in a separate volume (file): Teil 4: Marken der deutschen Kriegsflotten

Offline malj1

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Re: Help pls%uFF01Peter Menzel Reference book
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2020, 12:42:55 AM »
The S.M.S. Emden tokens are highly sought after in Australia where they command very high prices. I have the 10 and 50 [pfennig]

Commissioned in 1909 the Emden had a brief, but very successful sortie in the Far East at the beginning of the Great war, before being battered into submission off the Cocos Islands on the 9th November, 1914 by the Australian cruiser H.M.A.S. Sydney.

See here for more.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.