Author Topic: Countermarks related to European integration  (Read 920 times)

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Offline eurocoin

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Countermarks related to European integration
« on: November 20, 2019, 07:00:02 PM »
Occasionally I come across  reports of collectors who found coins with a countermark related to Brexit in their change. I had saved a few images on my phone and while cleaning again came across them. I found them too interesting to just delete so instead I will post them here. 

Offline eurocoin

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2019, 07:01:08 PM »
2 pounds coin of Gibraltar stamped with NO EU on it:


© Brian Wadey - Fifty Pence Coin Collectors Group 50p, Facebook
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 09:53:45 AM by eurocoin »

Offline eurocoin

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2019, 07:01:57 PM »
50p of the UK with an even clearer message of a remainer as found in circulation in Manchester:


© Barry Brophy, Facebook
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 03:21:49 PM by eurocoin »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2019, 07:25:24 PM »
Interesting topic. At least we don't have a problem of "you don't know when they were marked" with these. They are subject to another problem, though: the rule of demand creates its own supply. If it becomes clear the a 2 pound coin of Gibraltar is worth two pounds in Gibraltar, nothing in the UK and £5 to a coin collector or an eBay buyer, they will be produced "for the market", rather than to vent someone's spleen.

Peter

P.S. I have never understood why sex is a negative in English.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 11:19:10 AM »
I haven't seen any of these yet so apparently they're scarce.

I agree that produced "for the market" is a very real possibility for these pieces. It's become a problem for the Troubles related issues that I track, but these are even newer. Very little time for the coins to acquire markers that help in authentication.

Of course the most important thing to consider is intent. If they were struck to promote a cause or point of view then they'd have to be considered legitimate. But how do you prove or disprove intent?

I'm currently in contact with a professor at the Fitzwilliam Museum (Cambridge) whose researching the history of "dissident money".I've shared a lot of what I know about the Troubles coinage with him, but the scope of his grant covers other countries too. If you have no objection, eurocoin, I'd like to forward your pictures to him. I think he'd be interested in seeing them.

Bruce

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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2019, 12:24:53 PM »
Of course the most important thing to consider is intent. If they were struck to promote a cause or point of view then they'd have to be considered legitimate. But how do you prove or disprove intent?

I have actually dealt with the question of "proving" intent. Perhaps it helps if I tell you about my approach? The question was, how to define a long-term investment, something that boiled down to "the intention to hold on to the investment for a long time. What I did was:

List actors and analyse how well equipped they are. In this case, anybody can make them, but the British are most likely and Britons who have access to the required punches are even more likely. If the countermarked coin was purchased in say Nigeria, that says something. If it came from a UK school that teaches metal working that says something also.

List instruments and analyse what makes them most suitable. All coins can be used but e.g. those of the UK will circulate and spread the message. Circulated coins work better than proofs.

Give the two lists a generous amount of thought. Sort them by likelihood. Define a broad case of what is likely to be genuine. Test on known imitations and doubtful cases. In my case: is a tsarist railway bond partially repaid a century later a long-term investment? No. Intent to hold is lacking. The purchase of a large package of equity in order to claim a board seat is probably a long-term investment, but what if the buyer changes his mind and sells the package to a third party in a take-over bid? Buying real estate is normally a long-term investment. A day trader buying a 10 year bond is not making a long-term investment etc.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 03:24:53 PM »
Several 'coins' have so far been issued by collectors related to Brexit, one of which can be seen here, so it is certainly possible that sooner or later someone will decide to start to mark legal tender coins with messages related to Brexit to sell the countermarked coins. As far as I know that has not (yet) happened though.

The 2 pieces in this topic were both found in general circulation.

You may certainly forward the images to your contact at the Fitzwilliam Museum.

Offline andyg

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 06:13:54 PM »
I have an old pound coin stamped "OUT EEC" somewhere, received in change - I think I posted a picture of it when I got it (not that I can find it again ::))
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline brandm24

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 11:10:34 PM »
Even in the extreme case of someone stamping a modern coin, selling it on eBay and then turning over the proceeds to a group he supports can be considered legitimate. If he pockets the money then it's not. So there we are, back to intent. Only the maker knows for sure. We can only speculate.

Bruce

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Offline brandm24

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 11:28:36 PM »
I have an old pound coin stamped "OUT EEC" somewhere, received in change - I think I posted a picture of it when I got it (not that I can find it again ::))
If you can find it, I'd love to see it. Do you recall the date of the coin?

 I got this example from a source in Vale Paraiso, Portugal not too long ago. The slogan "EEC / No" is a slight variation from yours, but the meaning seems clear.

The coin, a 1969 Irish 10p, fits into the timeline of the EEC well. While the concept of the European Economic Community was first proposed in the 1957 Treaty of Rome as a plan for the economic integration of future EU members, Ireland and the UK didn't join until 1973. Someone for whatever reason was opposed to membership.

Bruce

Bruce
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Offline andyg

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2019, 11:47:45 PM »
The pound coin is dated 1984, by the time I got it c2010 the EEC had long been renamed so I presume that it had been around for a while.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline brandm24

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 10:10:30 AM »
Thanks for the picture. andyg. Much appreciated.

Bruce
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Offline eurocoin

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2020, 03:18:55 PM »
Three further pieces:

BRXT CON found in circulation in Rotherham.


© Jamie Hatton - Coin Collectors UK, Facebook


Offline eurocoin

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2020, 03:19:29 PM »
FÜCK BREXIT on a 50p found in circulation in or near Norwich.


© Emma Edgar, Facebook
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 04:13:36 PM by eurocoin »

Offline eurocoin

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Re: Countermarks related to European integration
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2020, 03:20:24 PM »
PEOPLE'S VOTE on a 2 pence coin of 2012 that is part of the collection of the Fitzwilliam Museum.


© Dan Hicks, Twitter