Author Topic: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin  (Read 733 times)

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Offline kadan

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Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« on: September 23, 2019, 06:09:13 PM »
First I want to apologize if you have already seen this contribution (coin) on another forum.
I have placed this coin on various forums with no identification so far.
Various experts have looked at this, including Arent Pol.
It looks like a merovingian tremissis. But no equal have been found so far.
The big Cross with crosslets is very strange, and the other side is just as unusual.
The coin weight is 1,1 gram (not heavy enough). The diameter is 13mm, it contains 84% ​​gold.
It looks like someone couldn't write. The lack of a head is also strange.
Maybe someone can help me here and otherwise it is certainly interesting enough to show it.
The coin is found in the Netherlands in 2017, with a metaldetector.
Other finds include Roman and medieval finds.

Thanks in advance, Kadan

Offline gpimper

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2019, 09:07:42 PM »
The Cross is very similar to some of the early Spanish coins I've seen...the front I have no clue, sorry, looking but could be a Northeast European copy?  :-)  Very interesting coin, though!  Just a thought, could that maybe be a restrike?  You mentioned the weight as being a bit low.  Just a thought.  Looking hard I think you may have a restrike Byzantine gold, chopped down, light weight Follis but I could be wrong! (I'm probably wrong :-(
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 09:31:54 PM by gpimper »
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2019, 10:31:54 AM »
I am curious what Arent Pol had to say about this piece. His knowledge goes well beyond Merovingian gold.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline gpimper

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2019, 04:16:45 AM »
The face looks a combination of Roman and Celt...very cool!  I'm still thinking the cross could be Spanish.  Peter, I'd really like to hear from your expert!  Very interesting coin!  Look at the edges on the front vs the back...much more pronounced.  I like it
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline kadan

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2019, 05:37:11 PM »
I am curious what Arent Pol had to say about this piece. His knowledge goes well beyond Merovingian gold.

Peter

I tried to translate his Dutch response into English with Google translate:

Quote
"Thank you very much for this nice report!
I mean that "nice report" a bit ironic because I don't see a location and the coin is a very strange thing, but otherwise I'm very happy with it ...
This device gets number 15359 in my database, but from that now substantial file there is no answer to the question about what you have found exactly. "

"To my regret, I cannot deliver the requested determination. This is something completely new, something that I have not seen before and which I cannot place at all - no idea where it comes from and how old it is, I can only guess: given the probable location probably somewhere in Brabant / Betuwe or wide area (half the Netherlands and Belgium), and probably in the middle of the 7th century (? 625-675?) because that's where it should be seen artists, weight / diameter and color

Offline gpimper

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 08:23:05 PM »
Wicked!  Very cool coin indeed.  Please keep us apprised!
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2019, 11:33:24 PM »
OK, so we have 7th century, unknown type. I am taking the liberty to disagree with Arent that it is "Dutch" because it was found there, as it is so different from everything we know to be "Dutch". We know that the main "tribes" of the 7th century in North-Western Europe were Frisians, Franks and Saxons and we know they traded and conducted raids, so the usual suspects, merchants and soldiers, could have brought the piece from other lands.

It's not Scandinavian, Irish or English as it lacks a portrait and writing (I think the side on the upper picture is decorative, not writing because there is too much symmetry for writing), uses the uncommon motive of the cross-crosslet (it does occur in the 9th century) and does not occur in Spink. Likewise, it is not "Belgian" for the same reason and because it isn't in Vanhoudt. It could in principle be "French" as Duplessy doesn't cover 7th century coins, but I doubt it. The "French" types I know have either a Carolingian monogram or a portrait and the cross is a-typical for the coins I have seen.

That leaves Germany. The source here is Dannenberg, which is now well over 100 years old. I checked Frisia, Brunswick and Saxony as well as Cologne, the major military and trade suspects and did a quick scan of Dannenberg. I did not find a single cross-crosslet, nor a pattern that even remotely looked like the one on the first picture.

Just because it was at hand, I also went through Cayón. It does not look like anything listed for "Spain". I cannot possibly be Celtic, since the Celts would not have used the cross-crosslet device and were not Christian.

So here the options I could not check well enough:
- a "French" Frankish coin
- a "German" coin
However, both these options look unlikely to me in view of what I could check.

And here are the "out of the box" options:
- Arent got the century wrong and it's an earlier piece
In favour: the style, in particular of the side in the first picture, finding Roman coins alongside this piece. Against: Arent's argument of weight and alloy (colour).
- not a coin, but an item of decoration
In favour: would explain all mysteries, roundness, centric strike. Against: no hole, no frame, struck on two sides.
- fantasy
In favour: would explain all mysteries, roundness, centric strike, bevelled edge. Against: Arent considers it good enough to take it up into his data base.

In sum, all available options look unlikely. Frustrating.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline gpimper

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2019, 07:19:17 AM »
Peter, great arguments, all.  What I've been looking at is the design of the cross.  I think there could be a clue there.  Still looking!
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline kadan

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2019, 08:02:32 AM »
Gentlemen, thank you for your effort. Clear explanation too. I and other people have of course already investigated a few things, without any real results.
I'll share something about this later. Not done so far to see what answers would come here. The outcome of other quests are also suggestions and not real solutions .... unfortunately.

Offline kadan

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2019, 08:11:43 AM »
I myself have thought of another possibility.
Perhaps it is merovingian but not directly a coin as a currency.
Perhaps it is a coin to pay for the crossing to heaven that was given (on the mouth) as a grave gift.
Found a similar coin in Germany as a link.
Geheimnisse eines Grabes: Verwobene Familienbande im Frühmitteltalter | Museum
But it's a golden bracteat.

Offline gpimper

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2019, 08:21:40 AM »
I think you may be on to something, there!  That would make sense.  Still not sure of the mint or origin considering were it was found.  Wonderful find, by the way!  My best metal detector find was a 1700s Spanish Bullion in southern Arizona  8)  I would post but it's in the museum in Flagstaff, AZ for now (on loan).
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline kadan

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2019, 08:22:21 AM »
other possibilities are another: golden viking coin?
Looks like the following bractaet: Sensationsfund auf Rügen: Über 1000 Jahre alt ? was der Schatz von Harald

Offline kadan

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2019, 08:25:24 AM »
anglo saxon?


Offline kadan

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2019, 08:27:59 AM »
And the last mystery, a golden Bela II coin? a similar coin:

Online FosseWay

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Re: Very interesting (early medieval?) Coin
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2019, 10:54:26 AM »
anglo saxon?

I was wondering whether it could be an imitation of a foreign coin where the imitator had no idea of what the original portrayed. There is a gold coin of Offa which is clearly modelled on an Islamic dinar, since parts of the Kalima are still legible despite the bungled copying. I would imagine that if Offa or his moneyer had known what the Kalima meant, he as a Christian would not have incorporated it word for word.

The comparison above with the Anglo-Saxon coin could show something similar; literacy in Scandinavia was even lower than in England and those who could read and write did so with runes, not Latin characters. So both the Latin characters and the Christian imagery on the original would have been meaningless to the imitator and thus become bungled.