Author Topic: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.  (Read 812 times)

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Offline ZYV

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A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« on: August 12, 2019, 03:34:52 PM »
As far as I can see,
there is a mistake in reverse legend of second coin.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 04:07:29 PM by ZYV »
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 04:06:02 PM »
This is not a mistake in the sense of a die cutter having forgotten the bar in the H. It is an error in the production process, known as "filled die". At some time, a very small piece of dirt or metal settled in the bar of the H. This happens regularly, so the dies are cleaned often. Our little piece of dirt - let's call it Don - survived the cleaning, though. As the die was used again, Don collected other pieces of dirt around him. Each time the die produced a coin, Don was more firmly set. The pieces of dirt around Don hardened and started to collect dirt themselves. This process continued until the whole bar was filled with impenetrable, petrified dirt.

The hospitable bar was reduced to a shadow of itself. This effect is called ghosting. It is visible on your coin. You can spot where the bar should have been, if it hadn't been for Don.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ZYV

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 04:47:37 PM »
Dear Figleaf,
if you'll have a closer look on the pictures - you'll see that the problem here isn't the bar.
My publications on numismatics and history of Golden Horde  https://independent.academia.edu/ZayonchkovskyYuru

Offline Figleaf

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 10:32:22 PM »
Well, if you don't want to tell me what you are wondering about - I don't know what's caused by the light and what is real - I can't solve your problem.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 08:16:24 AM »
The left-hand upright of the H is different on the deviant coin (serifs missing at the top and partly at the bottom). I suspect that this is what ZYV means, but I suspect equally strongly that the cause is the same as Peter gives above.

Offline ZYV

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2019, 01:37:40 PM »
The left-hand upright of the H is different on the deviant coin (serifs missing at the top and partly at the bottom).
You are right, dear FosseWay.
My publications on numismatics and history of Golden Horde  https://independent.academia.edu/ZayonchkovskyYuru

Offline ZYV

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 01:40:50 PM »
I suspect equally strongly that the cause is the same as Peter gives above.
Let's pay attention to right angles of the upper part of the left-hand upright of the H.
Must we really believe that "a very small piece of dirt or metal" can do such exact forms?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:51:43 PM by ZYV »
My publications on numismatics and history of Golden Horde  https://independent.academia.edu/ZayonchkovskyYuru

Offline FosseWay

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 02:22:13 PM »
It is unlikely that a random piece of dirt will be precisely straight or have precise right angles, indeed. But the dirt that fills a die isn't random. If it is fairly flexible and malleable, the dirt will get shaped by the action of the minting equipment and the design detail into which it is pressed. If it isn't malleable, it will be more brittle and either break up or simply fall out of the die or not fit in the hole in the first place.

In this case, the design detail in question consists of two small square depressions corresponding to the two serifs on the top of the column of the H. The dirt has lodged there because it can - it is a sufficiently small space to be filled by the available dirt enough to stick fast against the sides of the depression and not rattle around and fall out, and not be dislodged by a worker giving the die a casual wipe. It hasn't sat fast in the top area of the column itself, because it is more easily dislodged from there.

In any case, it hasn't obliterated the serifs precisely. At least on the right-hand serif, there is an irregularity in the vertical edge of the column of the H (see attached). The dirt has therefore not filled the die completely but has allowed the start of the serif to be punched as normal into the metal of the coin. It also hasn't filled the bar of the H completely, as this is weakly visible on the coin.

Offline ZYV

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Re: A thaler with mistake in RV legend.
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 03:01:25 PM »
Thank you for the answers, dear FosseWay and Figleaf!
My publications on numismatics and history of Golden Horde  https://independent.academia.edu/ZayonchkovskyYuru