Author Topic: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON  (Read 849 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JBK

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« on: August 05, 2019, 07:55:00 PM »
I very recently won an auction for a presumed French advertising counterstamp on an 1867-N 10 Centisimi coin from Italy. This coin seems to be from then golden era of European advertising counterstamps on neighboring countries' copper coins. (Is there a name for this era in European counterstamping? There should be!).

I must admit that I did no research prior to bidding since the price was so low, but I assumed that an Italian coin with what might be a French counterstamp placed the coin in the era of the PEAR'S SOAP and other counterstamps.

The counterstamp reads PNEU SEDDON.  "Pneu" is French for "tire" (or "tyre" to some of you) and "Seddon" is the company name. I did not fund much on the Internet about this company but I did fund a print ad from the very late 19th century that shows a bicycle with PNEU SEDDON superimposed on the tire. (This was in the pre-automobile age so tires were only for bicycles).

I thought I'd share it in case anyone had any additional information or ideas on this counterstamp.

Here is the seller's photo, used with permission:




Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30 584
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 12:01:15 PM »
I get several hits on Seddon when looking in the UK and there are more in Australia and New Zealand. It suggests that at least part of the family originated in Britain. This makes sense, as in history, there was  constant migration between France and the UK in both directions. The name Seddon, with double d, actually looks more English than French to me. Compare Sedan. In addition, in French, the text should be PNEUS, rather than PNEU.

I suggest that Seddon Tyres (note the plural) may have been a British enterprise with a French connection.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline FosseWay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 295
  • Göteborg, Sverige
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 12:33:32 PM »
The Australian Google hits seem all/mostly to do with tyre sales in a place called Seddon, rather than that being the company name.

The pneumatic tyre was (re-)invented by Dunlop in 1888. (As it happens, a patent had been granted in the 1840s for something sufficiently similar to invalidate Dunlop's claim, but no industrial use was made of the invention.) Pneu in French means specifically a pneumatic tyre; it is an abbreviation of (bandage) pneumatique. The French term for what in English is known as a solid tyre is bandage plein. This counterstamp can only date from 1888 at the earliest, therefore, and probably a fair bit later. The cycling revolution of the 1890s and up to the First World War was a direct result of the pneumatic tyre, and I suspect this counterstamp is from that period.

This puts it in the same time bracket as the Danish hotel tokens (Allan Dahl etc.) made by counterstamping other Scandinavian copper coins. I had always imagined that the British ones - Pear's Soap and the like - were earlier, but I may be mistaken on this. Certainly you tend to find Pear's Soap etc. on Third Empire coinage rather than that of the post-1871 republic.

Offline maxmissy

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2019, 02:52:22 PM »
Just have a look to the words written on the tyre

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Meritorious Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 05:03:28 PM »
I very recently won an auction for a presumed French advertising counterstamp on an 1867-N 10 Centisimi coin from Italy. This coin seems to be from then golden era of European advertising counterstamps on neighboring countries' copper coins. (Is there a name for this era in European counterstamping? There should be!).

I must admit that I did no research prior to bidding since the price was so low, but I assumed that an Italian coin with what might be a French counterstamp placed the coin in the era of the PEAR'S SOAP and other counterstamps.

The counterstamp reads PNEU SEDDON.  "Pneu" is French for "tire" (or "tyre" to some of you) and "Seddon" is the company name. I did not fund much on the Internet about this company but I did fund a print ad from the very late 19th century that shows a bicycle with PNEU SEDDON superimposed on the tire. (This was in the pre-automobile age so tires were only for bicycles).

I thought I'd share it in case anyone had any additional information or ideas on this counterstamp.

Here is the seller's photo, used with permission:
That's a new one on me. Not listed in Brunk or anywhere else that I know of.

Did you perchance ask the seller if he knew anything about the counterstamp? I do that routinely when I acquire a piece I can't decipher. Surprisingly, you sometimes get something interesting from them, even if only conjecture.

A nice clear stamp on a clean coin.

Bruce
Always Faithful

Offline JBK

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2019, 06:56:26 PM »
Thx Bruce - good idea.  I will ask him.

I am pretty confident it is the tire/tyre maker as it all fits (era, French counterstamp on an Italian coin, etc.), but let's see if anything else turns up.

Offline JBK

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 07:02:41 PM »
And thanks everyone for their information/ideas.

It is a good reminder that Google returns different results in different countries, and it reaffirms the benefits of an international forum.

I found a black and white copy of that advertisement on-line but thanks for the color one - I will definitely save that. 

And, as a good investigation often does, this one opens up another another area of inquiry.  It seems this French counterstamp dates from the very late 1880s or early 1890s. I know that Britain was cracking down on the foreign coins circulating there by the mid-1880s, but the other European countries may have kept it going a bit longer.

Offline FosseWay

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 295
  • Göteborg, Sverige
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2019, 09:05:18 PM »
And, as a good investigation often does, this one opens up another another area of inquiry.  It seems this French counterstamp dates from the very late 1880s or early 1890s. I know that Britain was cracking down on the foreign coins circulating there by the mid-1880s, but the other European countries may have kept it going a bit longer.

The situation is a bit different in this case (French counterstamp on an Italian coin) because both countries were members of the Latin Monetary Union. Officially it was only the silver and gold coins that were legally required to circulate in all member states, but in practice I suspect that bronze/copper did so as well in those cases where size and colour were similar (e.g. French, Italian, Spanish, Greek, Romanian, Finnish) but less so where they weren't (e.g. the cupro-nickel Belgian 5c and 10c coins).

The same was true of the Scandinavian Monetary Union, whose base unit was slightly more valuable (0.72 SMU = 1 LMU according to Wikipedia).

In these cases I doubt the supply of foreign coins in circulation would have dropped off as much as it did in Britain as you say (IIRC the old copper coinage and basically everything that wasn't post-1860 standard coin of the realm was withdrawn in 1870). At the same time, many countries had rules prohibiting the defacement of local official coinage, so there was a ready supply of foreign, but still generally usable, pieces that could be used for advertising.

Offline stef

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 10:02:43 PM »
I suggest that Seddon Tyres (note the plural) may have been a British enterprise with a French connection.
One possible company - "Seddon's Pneumatic Tyre Company" from Manchester

Offline JBK

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2019, 11:30:34 PM »
Thx for the lead!  I will also have to look into that one.

The complicating factor might be the date. If the Manchester company operated prior to the mid 19880s and if they also used the name (or short name) PNEU SEDDAN then this could well be a British token. 

Offline malj1

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7 349
  • "illegitimi non carborundum"
    • Mals Machine Tokens
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 12:48:05 AM »
This does seem to be the company: Seddon Pneumatic Tyre Company, Manchester.

The Wheel and cycling trade review
Year: 1888 (1880s)

....The New York Recorder, January 23, says: Of the first-class tires that by use have demonstrated their superiority, the Seddon is a leader. Made in Manchester, England, by the Seddon Pneumatic Tire Company, it has gained a world-wide reputation for its speed, lightness, durability, simplicity of attachment,double air chamber, appearance and absence of side slip. Nearly all the makers are...
 More here

BTW
Quote
It is a good reminder that Google returns different results in different countries, and it reaffirms the benefits of an international forum.

I use the Firefox browser and with this it is possible to add the Google UK search engine rather than the default Australian one I already have.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 01:03:22 AM by malj1 »
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline JBK

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 02:11:38 AM »
Very interesting.

I have to wonder if the coin is from the (presumably) French branch distributor, as "Pneu Seddon" does not seem to be an English version of the name.

Offline stef

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2019, 10:13:05 AM »

The company had a French branch. Look at the text in "The Wheel and cycling trade review" from 1894 here.

"A company which attracts special interest is the Seddon Co. and its French and Continental Companies, This company started with a great flourish of trumpets, but appears not to have fulfilled the promise of the prophets ..."

"Their French Patents Co.'s £1 shares have fallen to 6s. gd. ..."

From other internet sources: Seddon Pneumatic Tyre Company was liquidated in 1894. Probably suceeded by another company with similar name "The New Seddon Pneumatic Tyre and Self-closing Tube Company" (until 1899?).


Offline malj1

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7 349
  • "illegitimi non carborundum"
    • Mals Machine Tokens
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2019, 12:33:05 PM »
I read: Company No: 47796; New Seddon Pneumatic Tyre and Self Closing Tube Company Ltd. Incorporated in 1896. Dissolved before 1916

National archives
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline malj1

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7 349
  • "illegitimi non carborundum"
    • Mals Machine Tokens
Re: French counterstamp on Italian coin - PNEU SEDDON
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 12:42:40 PM »
A signed letter is for sale on Abebooks for Little Stour books

This mention French patents
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.