Author Topic: Help needed on three new counterstamps  (Read 623 times)

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Offline brandm24

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Help needed on three new counterstamps
« on: July 14, 2019, 08:43:01 PM »
I just received a small lot of English coppers I recently bought from a man in London. These three counterstamps were included and are somewhat of a mystery. I'd appreciate any help in identifying them.

The first one reads "H Jonas, Co", but it looks as though there might be something else stamped on either end of the slogan. I can't tell for sure. There's also a small design or logo directly underneath the company name, but I can't tell what it represents. The coin is a 1911 Penny. One thing is sure...the person who stamped it had a heavy hand. The reverse of the coin is nearly destroyed.

The only possibility I found is a late 19th / early 20th century Canadian company called Henri Jonas & Co in Montreal, founded in 1870 and still in business at least as late as 1905. Their address was, at some point,  301 St. Paul Street. Apparently, they manufactured or bottled condiments, spices, potions, medicines and other things of that nature.My first question is would this coin circulate in Canada during this period of time. If not, then I think I have the wrong issuer.

The second one is an 1892 Victoria Penny. The counterstamps are so lightly struck as to make it nearly undecipherable. I see what looks to be a beaded circle, and next to that the letters "EHS" or "ERS"...ERS, I think. Under that is "Doxey" which I assume describes the town in Staffordshire with the same name.

On doing a bit of research, I found three prominent companies that called Doxey home in this time period. A company called Bagnalls (Castle Works), Universal Grinding Wheel, and the sawmills of Henry Venables. None of these seem to fit with the little I can make out stamped on the coin.

The last one is a 1910 Penny, and reads "Aint Worth A Penny". This may just be a slap at the King or perhaps the phrase has another meaning...a political or economic slogan, if you will. I've seen second rate political parties with odder names. The Know Nothings in the mid 19th century US comes to mind. In any case, any help in deciphering these would be appreciated.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2019, 09:48:37 PM »
From memory. Too tired to check all the details. In principle, a 1911 penny could not circulate in Canada, but in practice, Canada is a possibility. Around 1911, Canada had chosen to follow the USD standard for silver and gold. The first gold coins expressed in CAD, rather than GBP are dated 1912. Only Newfoundland was still using the UK crown standard. The penny was therefore worth more than 1/60th CAD. IIRC, 1 USD was something like 4/6. If so, a penny would have been around 1/54th CAD, an inconvenient denomination.

In practice, this was probably an advertising token, so the host didn't matter much, as long as it was cheap. As UK copper couldn't circulate and since shipping them back to the UK was impractical, in view of their weight, UK bronzes may well have been sold below face (but slightly above melt) in Canada.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2019, 09:54:08 PM »
The second one is an 1892 Victoria Penny. The counterstamps are so lightly struck as to make it nearly undecipherable. I see what looks to be a beaded circle, and next to that the letters "EHS" or "ERS"...ERS, I think. Under that is "Doxey" which I assume describes the town in Staffordshire with the same name.

On doing a bit of research, I found three prominent companies that called Doxey home in this time period. A company called Bagnalls (Castle Works), Universal Grinding Wheel, and the sawmills of Henry Venables. None of these seem to fit with the little I can make out stamped on the coin.

It might be a surname rather than a place name - Doxey (place) is rather small....
Doxey Name Meaning, Family History, Family Crest & Coats of Arms
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2019, 09:59:43 PM »
On the second counterstamped coin, there is a circle between the presumed E and K. It is possible the countermark should be turned 90° counterclockwise, so that the Z becomes an N and the circle of ringlets becomes something like a military medal with the right half of the K and the S forming the eye. It is possible that the counterstamper had only letters at his disposal, as a ringlets could be an o. I realise this doesn't help the id. My point is that the DOXEY part may be the only significant information. Are the E in DOXEY and the E inside the circle of ringlets of the same size?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2019, 10:02:17 PM »
I believe that in the UK, "ain't" is considered a sign of lack of education, while it is acceptable in the US and maybe in Canada. I have seen the expression being used to protest against (perceived) inflation.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2019, 11:34:14 PM »
From memory. Too tired to check all the details. In principle, a 1911 penny could not circulate in Canada, but in practice, Canada is a possibility. Around 1911, Canada had chosen to follow the USD standard for silver and gold. The first gold coins expressed in CAD, rather than GBP are dated 1912. Only Newfoundland was still using the UK crown standard. The penny was therefore worth more than 1/60th CAD. IIRC, 1 USD was something like 4/6. If so, a penny would have been around 1/54th CAD, an inconvenient denomination.

In practice, this was probably an advertising token, so the host didn't matter much, as long as it was cheap. As UK copper couldn't circulate and since shipping them back to the UK was impractical, in view of their weight, UK bronzes may well have been sold below face (but slightly above melt) in Canada.

Peter

I didn't think with any certainty that it was a Canadian issue...just a shot in the dark. Thanks for all the information
I believe that in the UK, "ain't" is considered a sign of lack of education, while it is acceptable in the US and maybe in Canada. I have seen the expression being used to protest against (perceived) inflation.

Peter

You ain't wrong about that, Peter. ;D

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2019, 11:41:15 PM »
It might be a surname rather than a place name - Doxey (place) is rather small....
Doxey Name Meaning, Family History, Family Crest & Coats of Arms

Sometimes you can confuse a surname for a place name, so that may be the case here. No way to tell, of course. There's just not enough visible on the coin to make a determination.

There's more mysteries in counterstamp research than there are resolutions. That's what makes it fun though.

Thanks for weighing in.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2019, 11:44:37 PM »
On the second counterstamped coin, there is a circle between the presumed E and K. It is possible the countermark should be turned 90° counterclockwise, so that the Z becomes an N and the circle of ringlets becomes something like a military medal with the right half of the K and the S forming the eye. It is possible that the counterstamper had only letters at his disposal, as a ringlets could be an o. I realise this doesn't help the id. My point is that the DOXEY part may be the only significant information. Are the E in DOXEY and the E inside the circle of ringlets of the same size?

Peter
Yes, the E's appear to be the same size.

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2019, 12:44:37 AM »
I believe that in the UK, "ain't" is considered a sign of lack of education, while it is acceptable in the US and maybe in Canada. I have seen the expression being used to protest against (perceived) inflation.

Peter

There is a saying about this: Ain't ain't English, ain't ain't!

Another point too, while French coins were counterstamped in UK so too were British coins counterstamped in France.
Malcolm
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2019, 10:05:22 AM »
The Jonas stamp could be French, I suppose.

Over here "isn't" ain't used much. Too high brow...at least in my neighborhood.

Bruce
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Offline malj1

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2019, 01:12:52 PM »

The second one is an 1892 Victoria Penny. The counterstamps are so lightly struck as to make it nearly undecipherable. I see what looks to be a beaded circle, and next to that the letters "EHS" or "ERS"...ERS, I think. Under that is "Doxey" which I assume describes the town in Staffordshire with the same name.

I think this is two different counterstamps the circle of rings is reminiscent of an early American colonial piece, (I'll look it up if you don't recall it) with a device in the centre. Then obliterated by something like byers or myers ???
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2019, 04:21:43 PM »
Since you bought the three together and two of them are now shown to have a North American link, I think the Canadian link for the Jonas counterstamp is pretty firm, even though the seller is in London. Keep in mind that the hosts are British. They may have come from a North American source who couldn't identify the c/s, so decided to sell them to the country of the host coins.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 08:44:33 PM »
I think this is two different counterstamps the circle of rings is reminiscent of an early American colonial piece, (I'll look it up if you don't recall it) with a device in the centre. Then obliterated by something like byers or myers ???

The colonial you're probably thinking of is the Fugio Cent, except the design shows intertwined rings or links. I think it may have influenced the similar pattern on the early Chain Cent. Certainly an ugly coin, but quite rare today.

Undoubtedly, there were two separate stamps used on the Doxey piece. It appears as though the beaded design was struck first followed by (Y?)ERS and Doxey below. I also noticed a faint R stamped below the X. I still can't come to a conclusion about any of this, but I've removed the coin from the holder to better examine it. If I see anything else, I'll post it.

Thanks, Mal

Bruce
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Offline FosseWay

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2019, 07:36:46 AM »
On the Doxey one - within the circle of rings, there is a sideways N at (roughly) north, and an E at east. There is something I can't make out where the W should be but the S is blank. Could they be compass points?

Offline brandm24

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Re: Help needed on three new counterstamps
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2019, 11:46:56 AM »
Since you bought the three together and two of them are now shown to have a North American link, I think the Canadian link for the Jonas counterstamp is pretty firm, even though the seller is in London. Keep in mind that the hosts are British. They may have come from a North American source who couldn't identify the c/s, so decided to sell them to the country of the host coins.

Peter

You convinced me, Peter. I'll note the Canadian company on my holder, but as tentative.

Bruce
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