Author Topic: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals  (Read 421 times)

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Offline maudry

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Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« on: June 20, 2019, 10:21:44 PM »
This one looks very crude and I found one one possible match on zeno. Unfortunately, not very much useful information about the coin there though.
Size: 19X23mm
weight: 2.34gr

Offline gpimper

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2019, 11:39:57 PM »
Possibly Arabic.  Khurfah maybe.   Looking through Valentine but there isn't much on this one.  Cool coin, though!  Update, I found a similar coin from Morocco from about 1200 AD (maybe  earlier).  Just hard to make out details to match up.  Could be a copy of a Byzantine?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 12:35:03 AM by gpimper »
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2019, 10:14:22 AM »
Looks like you found a match, Maudry.  :applause: That's perhaps more detail than you could have reasonably hoped for. I presume the main device on the second picture is taken for an M, hence Byzantine follis imitation. However, my first impression of that device was an elephant with its tail upwards (good for local fertility of the ground :).) Not incompatible with Syria/Palestine, but more Eastward looking and perhaps somewhat earlier?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline maudry

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 09:58:33 PM »
Looks like you found a match, Maudry.  :applause: That's perhaps more detail than you could have reasonably hoped for. I presume the main device on the second picture is taken for an M, hence Byzantine follis imitation. However, my first impression of that device was an elephant with its tail upwards (good for local fertility of the ground :).) Not incompatible with Syria/Palestine, but more Eastward looking and perhaps somewhat earlier?

Peter
Thank you Peter.
Yes, possible match but from different dies though. This makes me believe that more similar coins should still exist.
I was aware that it was probably a tough one but I still hoped that someone could point me into the right direction.

Possibly Arabic.  Khurfah maybe.   Looking through Valentine but there isn't much on this one.  Cool coin, though!  Update, I found a similar coin from Morocco from about 1200 AD (maybe  earlier).  Just hard to make out details to match up.  Could be a copy of a Byzantine?
Could you give more information about that coin from Morocco?
In which reference did you find it?
Thanks.

Offline maudry

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2019, 11:40:17 PM »
I found this: https://www.byzantine-ae.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Chapter_23_-_The_Pseudo-Byzantine_Coinage.pdf
Coin 23.67 page 316 looks like another not too bad match.
Would make it Goodwin Type E (poor imitation).

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2019, 10:50:22 AM »
I am not convinced by tyhe coins in that link. There is one full length portrait on your coin, while the ones shown in that link have three persons. Granted that they have M as well as m, but the character on yours looks more like a horizontally mirrored Cyrillic щ than an m. Note how an m has two arches, while the top of the character on your coin is straight. I am not saying it is a Cyrillic character, though.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline maudry

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2019, 10:13:13 PM »
You should go to the 9th page.
There are the coins with only one person.
The other clearly readable lettre on my coin is an N which does not exist in cyrillic unless you mirror the И

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2019, 10:30:15 PM »
You're right. I had overlooked those. There is even a type with the little ... uhh ... reproductive organ on the left of the M (23.71), but how about those dots on both side of the robe? You'd have to say yours is a copy of the imitation and the maker had an incredible urge to put some dots there. ;D I like the Zeno coin better.

BTW, Academia just added a description of a treasure of (presumably genuine) Byzantine folles found near Jericho. I scoured the pictures for you, hoping to find a possible original. No luck.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Crude Arab-Byzantine, AE fals
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2019, 10:33:33 PM »
I think Maudry has sorted it with that website and that his piece is perhaps nearest to 23.67. I think the 'tail' on the 'M' could actually be part of a letter in the inscription round (most on the website have the 'tail' at the left not right).

I must explore that site further, it looks very useful.

Alan