Troubles propaganda banknotes

Started by brandm24, May 03, 2019, 04:45:31 PM

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brandm24

Quote from: Figleaf on August 13, 2021, 01:43:22 PM
The use of the term "Home Rule" dates from 1853, but it didn't become mainstream in the case of Scotland until PM McMillan's Wind of Change speech in 1960, which Scottish nationalists took to imply to Scotland also. That period arguably ended in 2007, when the SNP put an independence referendum in its election platform. These dates do not restrict the period 1962-1984 implicit in your post any further.

My best guess for the structure is Dunottar castle. The lower part may just be an exaggerated rendition of the rock it sits on. In general, a ruin doesn't seem like the happiest symbol of independence to me (and neither does a unicorn).

Peter

I was surprised to see the phrase "Home Rule for Scotland" used in any other context other than relating to Ireland. I shouldn't have been surprised though as Scotland has their own independence movement.

I agree that a ruins is not a good symbol of independence but maybe it tells of a better or more heroic time in a country's history. But then again that historic reference has crumbled in time so maybe not so "heroic" after all. No opinion on unicorns, Peter, but the little critters are so cute. ;D

The seller, who lives in Warwickshire, told me that he found the note among the possessions of his late father. He was born in Scotland but had lived in England for many years. The family vacationed regularly in Scotland so he assumes that he came in possession of it during one of their trips there.

Bruce
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scroggs

I think the tower in the stamp is the Wallace monument in stirling which commemorates William Wallace.

Figleaf

I agree. I was misled by it looking like a ruin. A better symbol also. Its subject was tortured to death, but only after a famous victory. :-\

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

brandm24

That looks like you're both right. An interesting and awe inspiring monument.

The name William Wallace jogged my memory. I've seen several coins, all old British cartwheels counterstamped "WW." Didn't mean anything to me at the time but I was later told by two of my contacts in the UK that it might be a tribute to William Wallace. Just their opinions but interesting nevertheless.

Bruce
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brandm24

This is a recent acquisition and the second style of stamp I've seen supporting Scottish independence. It's dated 1 December, 1959 (actual issuance date?) but is part of the series of 1955 - 1967. These notes were withdrawn in 1968, so if my dates are correct, they offer a good time frame for when it was stamped.

The only other example I've seen was on a Great Britain Bank of England 10 shillings note auctioned by Heritage Auctions in August, 2014.

The seller acquired the note from a shop in Lincolnshire about 10 years ago. As always, your comments are much appreciated.

Bruce
Scottish 1.jpgScottish 2.jpgScottish 3.jpg   
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JohnI

Bruce;

The only legal tender notes in the UK are Bank of England notes. Those issued by the Irish and Scottish banks are private issue notes and are in effect a token of exchange. So only Bank of England notes must be accepted for goods and only Bank of England notes have crown protection from being defaced (i.e. couterstamped). Any other counterstamped note would at worst be treated as vandalism.

Bank of England notes or any other notes/coins that are still in circulation but have been officially withdrawn from circulation can be easily exchanged at any bank in the UK, so commonly circulated after they were wihdrawn. Withdrawn notes have no legal protection from being counterstamped, so the counterstamps on UK notes are most likely from shortly after the notes were officialy withdrawn. The high value and ease of exchange is probably the main reason for a lack of counterstamped banknotes.

The building on the Scottish counterstamps is Wallace Monument. This is close to Stirling Castle and commemorates the battle of Stirling Bridge, won by the Scots under William Wallace. The monument is on the small hill where the Scottish army allegedly waited for the English army to start crossing Stirling bridge prior attacking when about 1/3rd of the English army had crossed the bridge - the battle was won by the Scottish army charging the English army while it was crossing the bridge and had not established itself on the other side.

God save the King/Queen, regardless of whether the last verse specificaly mentioning the Scottish people is used or not, owes it's origin to the 1745 rising and refers to the defeat of the Jacobite army, essentially a Scottish army. For this reason many Scottish people would refuse to sing it when it was commonly sung.


Regards;



John


brandm24

Many thanks for the history lesson on UK banknotes. We have no private issues here in the US so everything is government issued and legal tender. Before official paper was printed by the government there were many private "banks" that issued money often backed up by little or nothing. Most of them went bankrupt and the surviving specimens are known today as broken banknotes. The very early ones date back to the beginning of the 19th century. The oldest I've seen was dated 1818.

There was also private scrip from companies and individuals in various denominations. Though sometimes treated as "real" money they were in effect good-for paper tokens.

The Great Britain Bank of England example that I mentioned earlier would be a private bank too and not subject to protection from defacements. I've attached an image of it for you to see.

So, the likely date that this bill was stamped would be late 1960s shortly after it was withdrawn. That's more specific than my general assumption.

Thanks for everything, John. Your insight is much appreciated.

Bruce
Overdue Home Rule 4.jpgOverdue Home Rule 5.jpg 
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brandm24

I like to know as much as possible about these notes so had a couple of questions on the Scottish Self Government is Overdue 1-Pound note.

I was curious about the reference to the date 1 December, 1959. Is that the date the bill was actually printed or something else? Also, I can read the governor's name but not the treasurer's signature. Does anyone know? Thanks.

Bruce
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chrisild

According to this page, the signatures on the 1-Dec-1959 note (scroll down to 100c) are "Bilsland & Watson". The second names looks longer to me, but maybe it's first and last name ... :)

As for what is "legal tender" in the UK, this Wikipedia article says: "Bank of England notes are the only banknotes that are legal tender in England and Wales. [...] In Scotland and Northern Ireland, no banknotes, not even those issued by local banks, are legal tender."

FosseWay

Quote from: chrisild on January 30, 2023, 08:17:56 PMAccording to this page, the signatures on the 1-Dec-1959 note (scroll down to 100c) are "Bilsland & Watson". The second names looks longer to me, but maybe it's first and last name ... :)

According to Pick his first name is William, and that matches with what I read there. The first letter of the second name is much the same as the first of the first name, making it a W. But I agree that the rest of the second name is hard to match to Watson.

Perhaps he was a doctor ;D

brandm24

I can actually get William Watson out of the second signature although it looks like the tortured trail of a wounded centipede. But then maybe I'm forcing the name to fit into the bramble. :)

Thanks for the info guys.

Bruce
Always Faithful

JohnI

The Currency and Bank Notes Act 1928 made all Bank of England banknotes legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Currency and Bank Notes Act 1954 restricted the legal tender status in Scotland and Northern Ireland to notes of value less than £5 issued by the Bank of England.

The 1928 Act made it a criminal act to deface a Bank of England banknote anywhere in the UK. The fine then was £1 per act.



Regards;


John

brandm24

I was wondering if their were laws against defacing currency in the UK. I know it was illegal to stamp slogans on coins during the Troubles years but unaware of any penalties for banknotes. Now I know. Thanks.

Bruce
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