Author Topic: Venice, Doge Antonio Venier. Billon Tornasello  (Read 103 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline capnbirdseye

  • Vic
  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6 276
Venice, Doge Antonio Venier. Billon Tornasello
« on: April 02, 2019, 08:36:06 PM »
Another from my recent 'Islamic' lot if anyone can identify it. I can't make out what is in the centre ?

0.57g very thin, more like billon than silver
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 11:52:33 PM by capnbirdseye »
Vic

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 238
Re: Medieval Europe coin
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2019, 08:47:24 PM »
I can't make out what is in the centre ?

An angel with upturned wings, I think.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

  • Global Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3 365
  • DERBYS UK
Re: Medieval Europe coin
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2019, 09:34:35 PM »
Venice...?
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Manzikert

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1 225
Re: Medieval Europe coin
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 10:32:56 PM »
Venetian tornesello for the Morea, Doge Antonio Venier 1382-1400. Stahl Zecca: The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages 14-17; N. Circ. 1979, p.182. Theoretical fineness 0.110 Ag

Obv. + ANTO VENERIO DUX round winged lion of St. Mark
Rev. + VEXILIFER VENETIA[VM contraction] round cross

Alan

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 238
Re: Medieval Europe coin
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 10:58:09 PM »
The tornesello was minted in Venice but meant for the colonies of Coron and Modon, Negroponte and Crete. The coins were struck in a low grade silver alloy of 0.111 (black money). They were intended to replace the denier tournois. Although Venier reigned until 1400, tornesellos were last minted in 1350.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

  • Vic
  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6 276
Re: Medieval Europe coin
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2019, 11:46:33 PM »
Thanks for the i.d. Alan and everyone else who added comments,  another one saved from the lost & lonely tin
Vic

Offline Manzikert

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1 225
Re: Venice, Doge Antonio Venier. Billon Tornasello
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 12:44:36 AM »
But Venier's dates are 1382-1400, and I also have coins of Andrea Contarini, 1368-1382, so minting of torneselli must have continued past 1350: should that have been 1390?

Alan

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 238
Re: Venice, Doge Antonio Venier. Billon Tornasello
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2019, 10:54:52 AM »
AFAIK, minting went on, but minting of the tornesello specifically stopped. There is a confusing text here that seems to suggest minting of tornesello stopped even earlier, but it may refer only to those made in Greece.

By the end of the thirteenth century, mints in Thebes and Clarentza were producing large quantities of deniers tournois for the dukes of Athens and princes of Achaia respectively. A handful of other mints in Greece also issued significant quantities of deniers around the year 1300. In 1305 the government of Venice, noting the loss of income to its own treasury and to Venetian merchants from this minting, authorized the establishment in its mainland outposts of Coron and Modon of a mint to produce coins in competition. There is no evidence, numismatic or documentary, that such plans were ever carried out.

The striking of deniers tournois in the duchy of Athens apparently ended before the beginning of Catalan domination in 1311. By 1330, activity had been curtailed at the Achaian mint of Clarentza as well as at the smaller mainland mints. The older deniers tournois continued to circulate, however, long after their minting. In a hoard deposited in the early fifteenth century, almost one-third of the coins were deniers tournois minted before 1310, about a century earlier.


More inconclusive information at the bottom of page 1031 here. It does note that they type was not very successful.

Much more detail, except on what we are looking for here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Manzikert

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1 225
Re: Venice, Doge Antonio Venier. Billon Tornasello
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2019, 12:32:20 PM »
I don't have access to a full copy of Stahl, but in a Google extract on p.312 he says that '... torneselli are known which have been struck mistakenly with soldino reverse dies for the reigns of Andrea Contarini, Antonio Venier and Michele Steno.' Steno ruled from 1400-1413 so torneselli must have been struck after 1400. All torneselli were struck in Venice for export to the Venetian posessions.

The reference to 1350 can't even be to the Greek denier tournois: Metcalfe (Coinage of the Crusades and Latin East, p.284) refers to one struck after 1396 by Charles I Tocco, Count of Cephalonia at Leucas. Metcalf also has Michele Steno at the end of his list of Doges, presumably implying that he was the last to mint torneselli for the Venetian posessions.

Alan