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Cost of rolls

Started by eurocoin, March 23, 2019, 08:57:43 AM

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Quote from: Arminius on March 23, 2019, 07:23:02 AM
Maybe i could do better buying 2 Euro cent rolls from the bank. But this would add costs

Just wondering, are coin rolls not available for face value in German banks?


Quote from: eurocoin on March 23, 2019, 08:57:43 AM
Just wondering, are coin rolls not available for face value in German banks?

Not in our town any more.

Since a couple of months they urgently need about 10% additional charge to support all the earnings and bonus payments of the poor bankers.



Quote from: Arminius on March 23, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
Not in our town any more.

Since a couple of months they urgently need about 10% additional charge to support all the earnings and bonus payments of the poor bankers.

I see that's a shame >:(.My bank in the Netherlands charges 30 euro cent per roll which makes 1 euro cent rolls relatively quite expensive (60% premium). Other banks charge upto 45 euro cents per roll. In Belgium all banks still provide unlimited amounts of coin rolls for face value, which is where I get them from. Banks there still offer many services that do not exist anymore at Dutch banks (e.g. selling and exchanging foreign banknotes).


Why would that be a "shame"? Sure, I don't like it either that banks provide fewer cash related services these days, or charge extra for providing them. Problem is that banks are not charity institutions but profit oriented businesses ;) and in times of low interest rates, they have become quite creative when it comes to charging all kinds of extra fees. Plus (or rather minus), these days many customers do not really need cash services any more ...

Another important factor is that banks are required by law to check the cash that customers submit (counterfeited or not) - and that costs money too. Thus many commercial banks have fairly new policies and fees regarding the incoming and outgoing cash. For private customers who have an account with that bank, those services may well still be free, or rather included in the monthly fee. Other private customers - and businesses anyway - will need to pay.



Existential question: are banks strictly commercial organisations? I would argue that, while they need profit to survive, banks have a parallel social task: to facilitate small payments. Why else would they operate loss-making ATMs? It is part of their "license to operate" a newfangled term for social obligations, as anything social is out of fashion.

I think banks all over the world have neglected their social task, which easily explains why the public at large mistrusts them and movements like "occupy Wall Street" won't die. There is an unsubstantiated feeling that the financial sector is enriching itself and taking advantage of the public. As a financial sector insider, I largely agree. I also think banks will be punished for their behaviour by IT developments. Already, I no longer use banks to buy and sell foreign currency or make or receive payments outside the EU and I note that retail investing is moving away from banks also. I see new, internet based banks coming up, catering to small enterprises. What will go next? Mortgages? Credit cards?

I think that banks' social task includes churning out cash change on demand, but not necessarily to collectors, who are not using it to pay with. I am OK with collectors paying a premium for rolls of new coins but e.g. market stall holders should get them at face value. I realise it would be hard to separate the two groups, though, so I'd settle for rolls at face value for everyone, if only as banks' penitence.

An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.


It's pretty simple: There should be no charges for people to access their own money, with one exception, which is seeking to override the existing terms of a savings account that say you have to give X weeks' notice of a withdrawal. Withdrawing cash from your current account, or swapping a note for coins or vice versa should be free. The EU managed to sort the analogous problem with roaming charges out but there doesn't seem to be the will to address this. The cynic in me says that this is because the movers and shakers who lobby for and legislate for law changes are themselves disproportionately affected by roaming charges, but they neither share our relatively niche interest nor (more importantly) are from the most vulnerable layers of society where charging for access to one's own money will have the greatest negative effect.

Banks should be making their money by charging interest on loans and by investing the money savers deposit with them.


More detailed :

In my town the release of cash rolls is, as many service processes of banks, an impersonal self-service process at a machine.

If you are a regular customer of my bank with an account you have to pay 50% of the charges of other people.
For example: For a 2 Euro cent roll containing 50 pieces foreigners will pay 1,30 Euro at the rolls machine.
After identification with my EC-card and account check i have to pay (`only´) 1,15 Euro for a similar roll.
Different rolls - different costs.



It actually makes sense that rolls are obtainable cheaper in Belgium than in the Netherlands. In entire Belgium only 1 small bank branch has a machine to withdraw rolls from. All others just provide them over the counter, with the possibility to order them beforehand online. That in contrary to the Netherlands where you always have to get them from a roll machine, which are widespread, unless you have ordered them online (which comrs at an additional cost). In the past it even used to be possible to obtain loose coins of 1 and 2 euro from the regular ATM. I assume the Netherlands was the only country ever to have ATM's that also dispensed loose coins.

In contrary to the Netherlands machines to dispose coins are also very uncommon in Belgium. You have to dispose them in clear plastic bank bags, again over the counter. It is not possible to count the amount in the branch either. You have to guess an estimate of what the total amount is, which is then immediately being put into your account. The bags are then being sent to a central coin counting center where they are being counted and after that the balance on your account is being adjusted accordingly. I guess it is a system built on trust.  ;)

Lastly also the security during the transport is not very modern in Belgium. Whereas in the Netherlands a heavily armored vehicle drives as close as possible to a wall, after which in both the wall as well as on the side of the vehicle a kind of gap opens to exchange metallic containers with coins and banknotes, in Belgium I noticed how they use a wheelbarrow with see-through bags of coins stacked on it to transport the coins over the street to their vehicle, which is quite amusing if you are used to the tight security in the Netherlands.

All reasons why they can keep the costs low, I guess, which is good.  :)


As of next month, my Dutch bank will deactivate all of its machines to buy coin rolls and to deposit coins in its branches nationwide. Instead, new machines that are being shared by several banks, have been placed in hardware stores across the country (Gamma and Karwei). A far from great alternative. It is crazy how fast this process is going in the Netherlands, and how useless banks have become (negative interest rates, high costs, no service).



What does that mean? (I'm not quite sure).


This is the EU standard description of a contract tendered by an EU government. Such contracts are covered by the WTO Government Procurement Agreement (GPA). The objective of the GPA is to open government procurement to subjects of all WTO contracting parties. In this case, the objective was not achieved.

The object of the contract is to transport coins and banknotes for the benefit and account of the Dutch government, therefore from the mint and the government printing offices or to their warehouses, to be demonetised. The contract only covers these services, no distributing machines. The transport service has several aspects, but the key aspects are a) delivery of large amounts of cash in emergencies and b) deliveries to Schiphol airport. The only situation I can think of where the first occurs is terrorism and blackmail. The second situation would be more normal, as there are eight bank offices of two banks (ABN AMRO and GWK) and a number of ATMs on Schiphol, both before and after customs. GWK is owned by Travelex, the company that won the contract.

By specifying delivery to Schiphol, the ministry of finance has limited competition to ABN AMRO and Travelex, who both have at least one office after customs. Since ABN AMRO is not interested in money transport, the only possible candidate for the contract is Travelex.

However, the contract could have specified that deliveries to the airport could be outsourced to Travelex, all the more so since Travelex apparently intends to outsource to VTS (never heard of them) and Brinks (US cash transporter). That would have opened the contract to other contracting parties, as the GPA intends. The ministry says it has "consulted with the market" and that there were no objections. By "the market", it is quite likely that the ministry means it has contacted their usual coterie of Dutch banking contacts. It would not be beneficial for them to anger the ministry, which supervises them through the central bank. Sadly, I presume this ugly nationalism is standard operating procedure in most, if not all contracting parties. The amounts involved are likely to be too small for any contracting party to become exited about.

Personally, I believe that contracting for a coin design is also covered by the GPA, so that it cannot be restricted to the nationals of the country offering the contract.

An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.


My Dutch bank has recently significantly increased the costs to obtain coin rolls to 7 euros per transaction + 50 euro cents per roll. The quantity of rolls per transaction is limited to whatever is left in the machine.

In Belgium I now pay 2 euros per transaction, for unlimited rolls. There is no cost per roll.

As for the Netherlands, I believe that it is now officially cheaper to sign a contract with a commercial company like Brink's or G4S and have unlimited quantities of rolls delivered, then to get them from a machine with limited stock at a hardware store, operated by the bank. A crazy situation.