Author Topic: Vatican lira coins  (Read 4594 times)

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Offline Prosit

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Vatican lira coins
« on: October 12, 2007, 04:12:55 AM »
My daughter picked this up for me in Rome a while back.  Maybe some day I will get to go but im not counting on it.

Dale

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 01:37:54 PM »
I trust she's had a good time. Rome is such great fun. I saw such sets for sale at the Vatican post office. It is remarkable that they still have the pre-euro coins for sale, while the euro coins are long sold out.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Prosit

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 05:00:54 PM »
That is where she got it.  It is a great gift!  Don't know anything about the coins or the stamps but makes me happy she thought of poor ole Dad toiling away in the states while she ran all around Europe  ;D  She went to London, Rome, Paris, Venice, and somewhere in Switzerland and a few more I don't remember.  She got to see Roman stuff...I am so envious.

My world travels consist of crossing the Texas border and shopping for boots in Mexico  :-\

Dale

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 05:16:32 PM »
I crossed the Rio Grande a long, long time ago. On foot, going from San Antonio to Ciudad Juarez. On the way in I had to pay a nickel to a machine. On the way back I stood in line for a considerable time and US customs forced me to throw away the food I'd bought. :(

Vatican coins issued before the introduction of the euro are easy to collect, as long as you avoid the pseudo coins, but not very interesting when you're not Roman catholic. Coins of the myriad papal states are more interesting, but also much more difficult to find. In Rome, I didn't see any coin shops. There were a few dealers at the Sunday Porta Portese market, which is an event that must be seen to be believed: everything from jewelry to rusty nails in what must be one of the largest markets in Europe. The dealers had few Roman coins and those they had looked suspicious to me (Rome is the place where they struck coins dated 12 BC, just for American GI's). The modern coins were extremely common and overpriced. I did pick up a scandalous Mussolini medal...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 08:30:14 PM »
I trust she's had a good time. Rome is such great fun. I saw such sets for sale at the Vatican post office. It is remarkable that they still have the pre-euro coins for sale, while the euro coins are long sold out.

Peter

The vastly higher mintages will explain that.

While no Catholic, I enjoy Vatican coins (and those of the Papal States) - the former are easy to find even here in New Zealand.

BC Numismatics

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 01:52:42 PM »
Martin,it is usually the Vatican City 50 & 100 Lire coins that turn up over here.It was possible to get them in change in both Italy (especially in Rome) & San Marino,as the Vatican City coins were worth the same as the Italian & San Marinese coins.

Aidan.

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 03:51:05 PM »
Sorry, Aidan, but no. The coins of San Marino and the Vatican did not generally circulate in united Italy, in San Marino, or in Vatican city. I have been there often enough to know. The exception is a short period when Italian coins had become scarce and the 50 and 100 lire coins of the Vatican and (to a lesser extent) San Marino were pressed into duty as small change, together with plastic tokens, paper tokens, small bags of potato chips and candy. As a consequence, these pieces are easier to find, while the smaller values remain more elusive, except in sets. You may find the small values of the 1950's separately, because sets were unpopular and broken up at the time.

Some pre-euro sets of the Vatican were and are still available through the Vatican post office, in walking distance of St. Peter's square. Until the introduction of the euro, there was little demand for Vatican pieces. As Martin noted, the Vatican authorities had not forseen that the introduction of the euro would cause a euro coin collecting hype, that would drive up demand for Vatican pieces. A a result, the Vatican euro pieces will never circulate, so I do not consider them as coins either (but I am not asking anyone to agree with me).

Peter

« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 10:17:01 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline a3v1

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 05:26:40 PM »
Sorry Peter,
I will not be arguing with you as to whether the Vatican and San Marino coins in Lire circulated widely in Italy or not.
But in the pre-euro period there was an official agreement between Italy and the two others that coins of each country had the status of legal tender in all three countries.
(Just as in Luxembourg, where Belgian Francs also were legal tender, and vice versa).
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
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Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 10:15:20 PM »
No need to be sorry. Most pseudo coins are legal tender, but they don't circulate. Primitive money and tokens are not legal tender, yet they are used as money. Legal tender status doesn't mean it's money. I picked up a good number of Luxembourg (mostly 1 and 5 francs) and Monaco (mostly 10 and 20 centimes) coins from circulation, but even in the Italian scarcity period I never saw San Marino or Vatican coins circulate, though collectors said they did and I believe them, because Italian traders can often offer some 50 and 100 lire coins, but usually not the lower values.  I am sure you are right that the San Marino and Vatican coins could have circulated, but it's a question of taste. I want them to actually circulate, not because a collector used a few copies to pay with (I do that regularly with 5 euro coins just to see how people react), but because they are normally used as money.

However, like Dale, I make excceptions. Once, in Nice, I was cold and frustrated and walking around on the antique market. There was only one coin dealer with a large junk tray with lots of useless French stuff and worn to the bone British pennies and Spanish and Italian 5 and 10 centimos pieces. He saw my frustration, I think, because he came up with a dirty plastic album full of Vatican 50s and 100s and even a couple of 20s. I bought the whole album and traded away the duplicats. So there you are. I do have those Vatican pieces I consider highly doubtful. Even more, if they had been a gift from my daughter, I would have considered them a pretty special part of the collection. ;)

I have seen some circulated Vatican coins from the '30s in dealer's stock, but not from the '50s or later (there are dirty 50 and 100 lire coins around, but when properly cleaned, you can see they haven't circulated). I have also not seen any circulated San Marino, Andorra or Liechtenstein coins. By contrast, papal states' coins are normally well circulated.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2007, 10:46:27 AM »
Martin,it is usually the Vatican City 50 & 100 Lire coins that turn up over here.It was possible to get them in change in both Italy (especially in Rome) & San Marino,as the Vatican City coins were worth the same as the Italian & San Marinese coins.

Aidan.

The commonest Vatican coins found loose here in my experience would be the aluminium 1-10 lire of the early 1950s, followed by the various steel 100 lire of the 1960s and then perhaps some of the lower-denomination issues of the early 1940s (50c - L.2).  I don't think I've ever seen a loose 50 lire here, but then you may have been checking different junk trays to me :-)
 

Offline a3v1

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2007, 02:16:48 PM »
In 1963 I was camping with some friends on the Adriatic coast near Rimini. And I remember having seen the occasional San Marinese coin circulating there, from 10 Lire and up.
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
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Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

BC Numismatics

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 08:36:11 PM »
A3v1,San Marino wasn't issuing its own coins in 1963,as they stopped being issued in around 1935.San Marino resumed issuing coins in 1972.It would have been a Vatican City coin that you got in change.

Aidan.

Offline a3v1

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2007, 09:31:04 PM »
A3v1,San Marino wasn't issuing its own coins in 1963,as they stopped being issued in around 1935.San Marino resumed issuing coins in 1972.It would have been a Vatican City coin that you got in change.
@ Aidan,
You could be right in that! It is over four decades ago and I was much younger than I am today. Anyway: I remember very well having received some coins in Lire that were distinctly non-Italian.
As San Marino is not far from Rimini I at the time must have assumed that the non-Italian coins were San Marinese. :-[
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
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Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

BC Numismatics

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2007, 09:36:31 PM »
A3v1,I had checked my copy of the 1981 Krause catalogue to confirm this.

Aidan.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Vatican lira coins
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2007, 10:15:52 PM »
I have seen some circulated Vatican coins from the '30s in dealer's stock, but not from the '50s or later (there are dirty 50 and 100 lire coins around, but when properly cleaned, you can see they haven't circulated). I have also not seen any circulated San Marino, Andorra or Liechtenstein coins. By contrast, papal states' coins are normally well circulated.

Cannot tell whether the Vatican lire coins actually circulated, but before 2002 you could easily get some, for example when buying a Vatican Museums ticket. I got VA pieces back in change twice, 500 lire pieces IIRC, and I know from others who also got Vatican coins there. Don't know if that counts (after all, I got VA pieces from the Vatican, and that was the moment when they ceased to circulate ;) but back then such coins could actually be obtained "in the wild". Les neiges d'antan ...

Don't remember whether I got any SM lire coins in San Marino or Italy - I think so but am not sure. Andorra and Liechtenstein do not count because they do not have any circulation coins of their own at all. The Andorran diners were and are for collectors only; in LI they use Swiss coins and issue a few (in fact very few) NCLT silver and gold pieces. The latest one was not even nicely designed in my opinion. ;D

Christian