Author Topic: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation  (Read 173 times)

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Offline capnbirdseye

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China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« on: February 08, 2019, 02:54:26 PM »
A bit lighter in weight than average

2.55g
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 08:10:14 PM by capnbirdseye »
Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 03:51:56 PM »
Either Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation, since this coin, known as eiraku tsuho, was popular in Japan. In view of the weight, I would take it for Japanese.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Chinese cash to identify
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 04:18:35 PM »
Thank you Peter, based on that I've spotted another thread about this type here

I have checked but my coin is not magnetic
Vic

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 08:03:32 PM »
The pattern and casting work are as originals.    The slightly off-centered obverse would be unusual.    Copies and recasts were made in China, Vietnam, Japan and Indonesia.    The mints in China made lower-quality ones (weight, alloy and workmanship) for export.    Recognized Japanese varieties bring high prices, even those deemed common 35 years ago.   And they are being reproduced nowadays.    There is a high bar to anything being accepted as Japanese.

Vietnamese imitations have usually a fuzzy casting appearance.    Japanese are clear but often with minute retooling of the pattern.   Of the originals there are a hundred small varieties, and multiple engravers with varying levels of skill executing them.    Like everything else it is complicated.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 08:12:36 PM »
thank you bgriff99, so basically this is an original casting dating back to the 15th century ?

I've enlarged the photo a bit
Vic

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2019, 03:04:54 AM »
Basic attribution is an original Ming coin, of export quality.    Rusty color may indicate small amount of iron, as found in second quality issues.   No retooling is evident.   Original engraving quality is medium skill level. 

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2019, 04:26:19 AM »
This is the most common kind of Japanese copy.   It is a type, not a specific pattern, called a iutsushi-sen.   Meaning generated by recasting an original coin, usually twice, to generate first multiple lead mother cash, then the finished coins.    This is 22.0mm , 1.5g, about as thin as they could make it.   Decidedly not clear characters.   Not magnetic at all.    Recognized just by appearance.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2019, 05:10:00 AM »
This is a Vietnamese copy, probably middle 1600's.    Some catalogs attempt to assign all such kinds to one or another calligraphic group, each representing a mint or group of them.   I consider this an unattributable generic Vietnamese type.   Made of non-magnetic leaded bronze, 23.3mm , 2.2g.    Some of this kind can be, to me, not distinguishable from quite expensive Japanese varieties.   From a 10 for $13 lot, a dealer in China.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2019, 05:45:09 AM »
From Musi River dredging at Palembang.   A Sumatran recast in high tin content bronze.    In China tin was slightly more expensive than copper.   To adulterate alloy of forgeries, lead was used, which does not dissolve in copper, and so weakens the flan.    In the immediate vicinity of the Indonesian/ Malaysian tin mining fields, it was cheaper than even lead.   Metal of this coin is white, as if of zinc.    At 40% lead, a bronze coin is soft enough to fold.   At 40% tin, it is bell bronze, its hardest form, used also to cast coin dies.    This coin is probably above 50% tin.

Some retooling of the characters is evident.   It cannot be told if that was already present on the coin used as its seed, or done in the recasting process.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: China, AE Cash, Yung-Lo (1402-1424) or a Japanese imitation
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2019, 09:23:27 AM »
Highly interesting contribution. Thank you, Bruce.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.