Author Topic: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?  (Read 322 times)

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Offline Globetrotter

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Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« on: November 20, 2018, 06:46:20 PM »
Hej,

I need some help with this question:

The mentioned 1 oere coin has two different types in 1737, but the explination doesn't really tell you what to look for, so I found images on the NGC site for the km416.1. I compared those to my coin and I found a nice difference in the two "7" of the date.

Thanks for your opinions.

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline jkk

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2018, 08:53:48 AM »
Hej, Ole,

I definitely see the distinction between the two 7s, but I wasn't able to find any evidence that this variation has been assigned a Krause number all its own. I think it more likely they would create a new line item for 1737, listing the two variants.

I myself own only one Swedish piece from that era, a 1748 2 öre, and its 7 has the same little upward tick mark as the 7s in the NGC example you showed.

Have you considered the possibility that yours could be a contemporary counterfeit? I'm not saying it is, just that such variances when not otherwise reported make me wonder in that direction.

Lycka till!
Jonathan

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2018, 09:01:26 AM »
Hej JKK,

I hardly think anybody would try to falsify a 1 oere coin, even in 1737 they couldn't buy much with that......

Tak for hjaelpen
Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline milkshakespeare

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2018, 09:37:50 AM »
The coin with plain numerals in the date is minted in Avesta, the other one in Stockholm. There's also considerable difference in the royal monogram. The Stockholm coin is quite scarce.

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2018, 09:42:41 AM »
The coin with plain numerals in the date is minted in Avesta, the other one in Stockholm. There's also considerable difference in the royal monogram. The Stockholm coin is quite scarce.

Thanks a lot, on my coin the monogram is rather bad..... but the "7" is then an easy way to distinguish the two types?

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2018, 09:53:57 AM »
The coin with plain numerals in the date is minted in Avesta, the other one in Stockholm. There's also considerable difference in the royal monogram. The Stockholm coin is quite scarce.

Hej,

just to make sure, the coin with up-swung "7" is then the km416.2? I suppose, what you call "plain - no up-swing" "7" would then be the km416.1? NGC seems to see that the other way round?

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline milkshakespeare

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2018, 11:29:10 AM »
Thanks a lot, on my coin the monogram is rather bad..... but the "7" is then an easy way to distinguish the two types?

Ole

Hej,

just to make sure, the coin with up-swung "7" is then the km416.2? I suppose, what you call "plain - no up-swing" "7" would then be the km416.1? NGC seems to see that the other way round?

Ole

I'm not sure about the KM numbers, but whichever they are, the coin with up-swung 7 is the Stockholm coin, plain is Avesta. There are varieties of the Avesta monogram and the shape of the crowns around it, but the Stockholm monogram is quite clearly very different. Surely other varieties also exist.

Here's a scanned image from the book "Sveriges mynt 1521-1977" by Ahlström, Almer and Hemmingsson. Number 325 is Avesta, 341 is Stockholm.

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2018, 12:36:02 PM »
Hi,

Thanks, now everything is clear for me, but not for SCWC, NGC nor Numista, since they show the km416.2 coin's image for the km416.1 and no image for the km416.2. I have modified my documentation accordingly. Now I have to try communicate with those parties to get it right!

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline milkshakespeare

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2018, 04:08:35 PM »
Hi,

Thanks, now everything is clear for me, but not for SCWC, NGC nor Numista, since they show the km416.2 coin's image for the km416.1 and no image for the km416.2. I have modified my documentation accordingly. Now I have to try communicate with those parties to get it right!

Ole

I hope that they will listen to you! The Stockholm coin is a lot scarcer than the Avesta coin, and it is very important that people can tell them apart easily (and without speaking Swedish)!

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2018, 11:36:53 AM »
Sorry, bit late to the party  :)

Myntboken agrees with the analysis above: the one with the "uptick" 7s is Stockholm and occurs only with the special Stockholm monogram, where the Fs cross much lower down their stems. The central horizontal crosspiece of each F is some distance above where the two cross, whereas on the Avesta pieces the crosspieces more or less coincide with where the Fs cross.

Price: these are from 2011 but show the relative difference between the mints. 7000 SEK for Stockholm vs 500 or 725 SEK for Avesta (all VF).

There are two Avesta varieties for 1737, hence the two prices above. The one illustrated above from Sveriges mynt 1521-1977 has a smaller crown above the monogram and is the slightly cheaper variant. It would seem that the Avesta mint changed die during 1737 as the large crown variant (called "B" in Myntboken) was used 1730-1737 and the small crown variant ("C") used 1737-1744.

Ole, can you post the other side of your Avesta coin so we can attribute it to B or C? Or is it too worn to tell?

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2018, 12:43:29 PM »
Hej,

it's too worn to distinguish a lot.... anyway here are the images of boths sides.

Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2018, 01:06:14 PM »
I think that's probably B.

The left-hand void in the crown (circled below) is larger than the equivalent in the illustration of C upthread. But it's hard to be absolutely sure.

Offline Globetrotter

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Re: Sweden: 1 öre 1737, km416.n, different dates?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2018, 01:09:00 PM »
Hej Fosseway,

thanks for the info.

MvH
Ole
Ole

If you're interested in coin variants please find some English documentation here:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
and in French on Michel's site (the presentations are not the same):
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/