Muhammad Shah. Rupee. Mint: Surat. AH 113X RY: 2

[mmalhotra]

Hi everyone,

I recently purchased this Mughal coins on eBay from Raman-coins. They are guaranteeing they are genuine but I'm not sure. I have not yet received the items. How can one tell whether they are fake or real?

Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/MUGHAL-MUHAMMAD-SHAH-SURAT-MINT-BROAD-FLAN-1-RUPEE-1720-SILVER-MU17/382595016958?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Thanks in advance!
Mohak.

EDIT: Saving the image for future reference - should the link get broken.

[Figleaf]

The coin looks OK to me at first sight, but I am no expert. Wait for others to react.

If you doubt the authenticity of a coin, don't buy through eBay. They are particularly unhelpful. Their bottom line has way more priority than stopping fraud. If your doubts are slight, it is best to ask for the weight of the coin. If you get no answer, an evasive answer or a weight that is too high, don't buy. If the weight is too low, consider wear and shroff marks and decide on the risk you are running.

Since you already bought the coin, it is best to await delivery, weigh it yourself immediately. Also, inspect the edge (the third dimension). If you see a seam running horizontally or another metal in the centre, your coin is a fake. Run over to a friendly jewellery shop and ask them if it looks like good silver.

If it turns out to be a fake, lose no time. If you paid by paisepal or paypal and you can still block payment, do so. File a complete complaint against the seller at once. Don't bother with feedback yet. There is no deadline, but there are deadlines for complaints, returns etc. Make sure you respect them, or they will be used against you in full force and with a sigh of relief.

Peter

[mmalhotra]

Hi Figleaf,

Thanks for your reply They provided the specifications of the coin:  Weight 11.50 GM, Diameter: 26.55 MM

Thanks,
Mohak.

[asm]

The coin looks OK to me. But I would recommend that you check market prices before you get ripped off on e-bay and stop collecting. While I generally refrain from giving or mentioning prices, I would like to inform you that this coin is available locally around 900 INR. A coin with both dates fully seen and with more or less full mint on the coin would be around 1500 INR. The prices is for a coin of Muhammad Shah, Surat.

Amit

[Rabi_R]

I have a question regarding weight/authenticity.

What i have learned from this discussion is, if the coin is over weight, i shouldn't go for it. If it is underweight, i should consider the wear and tear and if i find the deviation to be disproportionate, i should be cautious. Of course, i will have to look for the seam to be sure the metal is genuine silver.

What if, the forger knows the weight and size of the original coin and makes a fake matching the original weight and size? Even if the metal is genuine silver, given the weight in this case, which is 11.5 grams, value of metal at current price of silver will not be more than 550 Rs.

[Figleaf]

Of course, such cases exist. What I described above are just basic checks. They will capture off-metal fakes (e.g. silvered brass), electrotypes, sand casts (practically impossible to get the weight right) and clumsily made fakes. A "ping" test will tell you if the coin is cast or struck (mind that some coins ought to be cast). It pays to have seen lots of cast fakes, so you can judge the surface of a coin.

More sophisticated fakes can be caught by comparing the coin with a known genuine one or, sometimes, by finding a die-identical fake. The last line of defence is being aware of striking techniques. Even the most sophisticated fakes are normally not made with the right technique. It is hard to give a generic recipe for spotting fakes this way, but once you have seen traces of the wrong technique, there is no doubt.

A problem is pronouncing a coin genuine. It comes down to intuition. You can prove a fake coin is a fake, but it is not possible to prove (in a legal or scientific sense) that a coin is genuine.

Fortunately, most fraudsters don't bother making sophisticated fakes. Even bad fakes can be sold easy enough. Fraudsters are greedy and amazingly stupid (almost, but not quite as stupid as spammers, who must have been born without a brain). They leave traces not just on the coin, but also in the distribution of the fakes. Be wary of "been in the family for generations" (why mention it?) "river find" (no way to check provenance, no archeological context) or "unlisted" (explains away why the fake doesn't look like an original.

Peter

[capnbirdseye]

First of all I would point out that the coin has been chemically cleaned as are many silver coins offered for sale now, I hate this with a passion, it destroys centuries of natural patina and no doubt it annoys others as well. In a way that helps forgers because they can offer a coin without trying to add centuries of toning.
The coin in question looks genuine to me but it is not rare or scarce,however that doesn't stop forgers who usually have no idea of what is most desirable to collectors.

Second I would point out that Raman-coins are reliable and trustworthy dealers, I have had a few dealings with them and there is no way they would knowingly sell a fake.

[Rabi_R]

A "ping" test will tell you if the coin is cast or struck .......

Peter

Will you please elaborate what a ping test is, how much of appliances and instruments are required, cost involved and if possible to conduct at the individual level without institutional assistance.

[capnbirdseye]

Will you please elaborate what a ping test is, how much of appliances and instruments are required, cost involved and if possible to conduct at the individual level without institutional assistance.

The only appliance needed is your thumb    you flick the coin up & listen to the sound, I never found this reliable with hammered coins but now I'm rather deaf I can't use it any more

[Figleaf]

Maybe you can do that with a sturdy, worn old coin, but for other coins, you risk damage and it won't work that way with hyper-light coins. I prefer a steady base and a fork.  See e.g. here

Peter

[Overlord]

Second I would point out that Raman-coins are reliable and trustworthy dealers, I have had a few dealings with them and there is no way they would knowingly sell a fake.

Are they the same seller though? The ones I know of are based out of Chennai. The item location here is displayed as Delhi.

[capnbirdseye]

Are they the same seller though? The ones I know of are based out of Chennai. The item location here is displayed as Delhi.

Yes, it's the correct raman coins I deal with, they always have peculiar red tinted photo's of copper coins but the coins are o.k., must be the lighting they use

[Rabi_R]

Is it reddish tinge or iron oxide? Had it been the light, the colour would have been uniformly spread.

[capnbirdseye]

Is it reddish tinge or iron oxide? Had it been the light, the colour would have been uniformly spread.

Neither, it's their photography that is not lit properly