Author Topic: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros  (Read 205 times)

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Offline saro

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Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« on: September 04, 2018, 06:13:24 PM »
This coin is a 2 kazbeg listed by Valentine (n 45 & 46/ p.118) with an animal depicted as a "buffalo".
These coins are not common and always (very) worn, however, it is clear that this animal isn't a buffalo but a rhinoceros, which is indeed uncommon ...
"zarb Tiflis" is still partially legible at bottom.
8,97g / 25mm / dated 112x (1127 ?), struck in Georgia at time of Simon under suzerainty of the Safavid Shah Husain.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 08:17:39 AM »
An amazing coin, saro. There is a great map on wiki showing how far the die sinker was from the actual animal when he made that picture (unless there was a zoo around where he lived). I can imagine Valentine being puzzled. My first impression was that the animal was a hippopotamus, since I don't see the horn, but that would be even more unlikely.

That's not even the end of my wonderment. I am amazed that you could actually read anything on this coin and wondering about where the word kazbeg might have come from. A fantastic talking piece, saro. Congratulations.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2018, 08:30:34 AM »
Thank you Peter.
It would be interesting to learn more on the origin of the denomination of these copper coins named "kasbek, kasbegh, kasbeghi" according to different sources.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2018, 09:06:52 AM »
Pure speculation, but could it be that the first syllable comes from the Tamil word kacu, which in turn refers to the Chinese word Tsien (cash in English, kas in Dutch)? Begh is a local honorific or part of a name. The whole would then be either "a cash coin of the Begh" (alternatively, a cash coin of a fellow who has Begh in his name) or "an honourable cash coin". It may look surprising that the word cash/kas travelled so far, but Asian denominations like denga (tanka) made it to Russia and so did cash. In Russian, it was deformed to chokh.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2018, 08:41:52 AM »
how far the die sinker was from the actual animal when he made that picture
"Ugly one horn !"...(from an italian drawing by Gelo )
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2018, 11:00:55 AM »
A really interesting piece and unfortunate that it's too worn to show the complete head of the animal.  what we are seeing as the lower part of a Rhino I can also visualise as the trunk of an Elephant
Vic

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2018, 12:10:31 PM »
a lot of imagination,Vic,  but it's well a rhinoceros, if you look at this other coin of the same type  ;)
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2018, 01:59:57 PM »
a lot of imagination,Vic,  but it's well a rhinoceros, if you look at this other coin of the same type  ;)

Agreed, it's definitely a Rhino,  if your coin has a white Rhino then it's even rarer  :D
Vic

Offline saro

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Re: Civic copper of Tiflis under Persian rule / Rhinoceros
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2018, 02:39:36 PM »
Yes ! it is a white rhino with a front tail which is extremly rare !  :D
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)