Author Topic: Very thick Umayyad fals  (Read 229 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pellinore

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1 172
    • Some numismatic books for sale on our website
Very thick Umayyad fals
« on: April 07, 2018, 02:23:27 AM »
I believe this fals is nothing unusual, but for its thickness, more than 6 grams by 19 mm. Here's the description:

AE Fals Egypt? Umayyads. No mint or date, after 77 = 696/7. 19 mm, 6.26 gr. Apparently Walker 619var, but I can't check that.
Can you tell me if this is usual for this type of coin?
Thanks,

--Paul

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 574
Re: Very thick Umayyad fals
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 02:27:59 PM »
Our otherwise helpful experts have remained silent. While I certainly don't have expertise on this coin, I regard it as additional evidence that in some systems, the falus coins went by weight.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Pellinore

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1 172
    • Some numismatic books for sale on our website
Re: Very thick Umayyad fals
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 03:00:06 PM »
Thanks for your reaction! But... it just as well may be evidence that fulus did NOT go by weight: the copper value was low and the weight thus arbitrary.
Paul

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 574
Re: Very thick Umayyad fals
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 06:44:17 PM »
Don't think so. What has practically no value is not suitable to be used as money. If copper value is insignificant, why would the Qarakhanids adjust their coins by filing?

These are quite old coins. I think our current knowledge of coins advanced by leaps and bounds, trial and error. Some experiments, e.g. fiduciary money, were made before their implications were fully understood. Others may have gone back in time. There's nothing new about people wanting to set the clock back. Money by metal weight (alloy is usually irrelevant in coppers) is a pre-coin concept, that did not really die until money became fiduciary. The only thing that separates coins by tally from coin by weight is the assumption that coins are the correct weight. That faith was almost always misplaced.

The motivation for full weight coins in Britain (cartwheel coppers) was justice. Seigniorage was considered unjust. Justice is an important concept in Islam. I can easily imagine medieval Islamic clerics urging the ruler to let the money for the poor circulate by weight as a means to achieve justice. I say this knowing that we have plenty of moslems in this group who I invite to correct me wherever necessary.

Of course, money by weight is inefficient. We have that knowledge today, but how much did that matter centuries ago? The idea of justice is older than the idea of efficiency.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline capnbirdseye

  • Vic
  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6 310
Re: Very thick Umayyad fals
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 06:51:54 PM »
I have a number of Umayyad & Mamluk fals I'm currently identifying,  I appear to have one similar to yours, weight is 6g, size 17.5mm

One side is the usual muhammad rasul allah as does yours but the other side is slightly differerent
Vic