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Author Topic: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?  (Read 297 times)

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Offline Arusak

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Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« on: March 09, 2018, 12:27:52 PM »
I have this coin, 27 mm diameter, which seems to be copying Qianlong - Boo kiyan. Is this a shimasen made in Indonesia, or some sort of modern copy? If it is the former, are there any references to determine when it was made?

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 09:38:54 AM »
This is not familiar.    It is based on Shaanxi (Shensi).     What is the metal, brass/bronze or is it brown patina tin?

Offline Arusak

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Re: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 02:34:38 PM »
The coin sounds different than a normal cash coin, but it is similar to other bronze coins I own. So likely some form of bronze and not tin.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 07:01:32 PM »
If the coin is bronze or brass, it is a modern fantasy.    The manufacturer should have stuck to making an oversized copy of a normal Shaanxi pattern, and passed it off as a sample coin.   Instead they went for something too strange to be taken seriously.    It is an old thing, in Chinese numismatics, to disdain "common" coins, and want only rarities.   But what ends up happening is, rarities are both actually never really gotten by shops, and not well enough known to be differentiated from fakes.   After that come the fantasies.   


Offline Arusak

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Re: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 04:56:10 PM »
If the coin is bronze or brass, it is a modern fantasy.    The manufacturer should have stuck to making an oversized copy of a normal Shaanxi pattern, and passed it off as a sample coin.   Instead they went for something too strange to be taken seriously.    It is an old thing, in Chinese numismatics, to disdain "common" coins, and want only rarities.   But what ends up happening is, rarities are both actually never really gotten by shops, and not well enough known to be differentiated from fakes.   After that come the fantasies.

Thank you. So were the shimasens only made from tin?

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 12:28:41 AM »
First, the term "shima-sen" originally referred to Japanese bronze crude predecessors to bita-sen.   The written word means unknown coins.    Later, "shima" was alternately written as the word for island.   About the same time it was discovered that loads of crude coins found in Java, of obvious 500 years antiquity, either were or looked a lot like Japanese shima-sen.    Now, it is accepted that only a few Japanese shima-sen made their way to Indonesia via Ryukyu trading.    Japanese numismatists add an additional term with shima to indicate Japanese kinds, and use the "island" written name to refer to Indonesian kinds.    Of which they were the early avid collectors, catalogers, got all the good ones, and drove up the prices.

For Indonesia, what we call shima-sen refers to full sized bronze imitations made for money from imported copper, lead, and regional tin.   There were perhaps 50 different mints we can recognize by style and workmanship, and a great many more just copied from original coin impressions in clay molds.   The primary time period is 1540-80.    That of course does not include Qian-long.

Tin copies of true shima-sen are few.   When miners on Banka island began making tin tokens, at first they made copies of Yong-le, which look like shima-sen.  If you know about Zeno.ru , please drop in to #191982.   That gets into the bronze shima-sen.   You can back up in the categories to see all the Indonesian cash imitations, and go back down the list to see the tin ones, and everything else.    Zeno is difficult to navigate from the home page.

At Zeno 122092 see a large Banka mining token based on a Qing cash, but not exactly copying it.    Made perhaps 1750-1800.    That is what I thought your coin might be, if made from tin.    Although it looks like a fantasy.     Back up the categories to Gongsi (Chinese for 'company') see the huge variety of them.   






Offline Arusak

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Re: Possible Shimasen of Qing cash?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 11:11:37 PM »
First, the term "shima-sen" originally referred to Japanese bronze crude predecessors to bita-sen.   The written word means unknown coins.    Later, "shima" was alternately written as the word for island.   About the same time it was discovered that loads of crude coins found in Java, of obvious 500 years antiquity, either were or looked a lot like Japanese shima-sen.    Now, it is accepted that only a few Japanese shima-sen made their way to Indonesia via Ryukyu trading.    Japanese numismatists add an additional term with shima to indicate Japanese kinds, and use the "island" written name to refer to Indonesian kinds.    Of which they were the early avid collectors, catalogers, got all the good ones, and drove up the prices.

For Indonesia, what we call shima-sen refers to full sized bronze imitations made for money from imported copper, lead, and regional tin.   There were perhaps 50 different mints we can recognize by style and workmanship, and a great many more just copied from original coin impressions in clay molds.   The primary time period is 1540-80.    That of course does not include Qian-long.

Tin copies of true shima-sen are few.   When miners on Banka island began making tin tokens, at first they made copies of Yong-le, which look like shima-sen.  If you know about Zeno.ru , please drop in to #191982.   That gets into the bronze shima-sen.   You can back up in the categories to see all the Indonesian cash imitations, and go back down the list to see the tin ones, and everything else.    Zeno is difficult to navigate from the home page.

At Zeno 122092 see a large Banka mining token based on a Qing cash, but not exactly copying it.    Made perhaps 1750-1800.    That is what I thought your coin might be, if made from tin.    Although it looks like a fantasy.     Back up the categories to Gongsi (Chinese for 'company') see the huge variety of them.   

Thank you, this is very informative.