Author Topic: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan  (Read 2080 times)

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Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2018, 08:30:06 PM »
Your cutting experiment nicely shows what happend to my specimen. There one of the letters fell off spontaneously.
The last coin you show luckily has a good ;picture, it shows the typical putty+fake patina surface i feel.

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2018, 01:52:08 PM »
Here is some more of these terrible things from Pakistan: :-\

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2018, 02:03:53 PM »
BTW, here is how they use putty on genuine rare but low grade coins. Pictures are before and after the coin was submerged in acetone:

Offline PeaceBD

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2018, 07:49:56 PM »
BTW, here is how they use putty on genuine rare but low grade coins. Pictures are before and after the coin was submerged in acetone:
Bactrianumis, thanks a lot for all the updates and identification of some of these very deceptive fakes which have shown up on the various reputed  auctions.

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2018, 06:03:28 PM »
Dear PeaceBD, you are welcome!
Here is another tooled fake from Pakistan:

Offline Pellinore

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There is one more thing I forgot to mention as a distinctive feature for all these tooled fakes - all coins literally smell chemicals, with sulfur-like odour. Hope it’s not hazardous for collector's health when one handles these items with bare hands or something.. :-\

If these fakes smell, it can't be too difficult to identify them as fakes - if taken in hand. Also, the weight might be a giveaway, and possibly one can do some trials as to the material when in hand? You are afraid if these 'coins' react with your hands. If they do, it must be possible to test the material without drilling holes or using your hands.

-- Paul

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2018, 07:34:39 PM »

Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2018, 03:30:35 PM »
Some more questionable coins offered on E-bay from Pakistan and UAE.
Looking at the sellers name this seems to be a family run operation. Almost all coins in their current inventory seem fake to me.
Seller 1, and his brother ?
This starts to take the form of a pandemic.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2018, 03:47:37 PM »
The Smast coins, too?
— Paul

Offline Overlord

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2018, 04:08:24 PM »
and his brother ?
Wouldn't think he would sell fake coins (to borrow from an old Lucas Arts game, where one of the lead characters says it rather innocently), "after all, he is a doctor".   :D >:D

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2018, 10:08:24 PM »
An interesting idea on ZENO of how CNG tooled fakes are related to Senior and ONS:

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=78877


Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2018, 11:52:01 AM »
Some serious points being raised. But good to have the discussion out in the open.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2018, 06:15:59 PM »
If some completely unknown Pakistanis do a fake coin racket that's one thing. If they are aided and abetted by a very well known expert, that's quite another thing. I am, frankly, at a loss how to handle this. I hate coin fraud, but I also know what it's like to be falsely accused and I am not equipped to find out what's true and false myself. Is Zeno, or anyone doing something?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2018, 12:13:38 AM »
Via ZENO I contacted Andrew Freeston. As he refers particularly to coins recently published in the Journal of the Oriental Numismatic Society my suggestion was to publish an article in this Journal which would be the best forum to discuss this matter.
As for as tooling of coins is concerned, this is something which is going on for sometime. Andrew Freeston appears to think that whatever Bob Senior had published in his ISCH vol. 4 in terms of late Indo-Greek rulers such as Strato II/III/Philopator/Dikaios was fake because the Kharoshthi letters do not match coins of other rulers published earlier and/or known from other groups. This is an odd sort of inference, particularly when very little in the wake of coins attributed to these kings was published even in Bopearachchi, let alone early contributions like Whitehead. These coins have been largely unknown to these authors, but now we do have many of them. In the long history of Indian Numismatics, this is not a ‘new’ phenomenon by any means – we can think of several series which were virtually unknown even 20-30 years ago, but now abound in collections and literature. Crude engraving of letters alone, IMHO, cannot be a precondition to judge the coins are ‘fakes’. The letters may be crudely engraved but the legends are still very much legible.
For whatever it is worth, I’d be happy if this debate comes out into the academic side of discourse. If it is confined on forums like ‘World of Coins’ or ‘Zeno’, I am afraid it only assumes the form of an impersonal conversation, which is not an academically valid, or ‘referenceable’ in any way. And like all impersonal discussions, it has the tendency to get ‘hot’ very fast, because the gloves can easily come off!

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2018, 10:41:08 AM »
Thank you, Oesho. It is reassuring to know that a sane and civilised dialogue is developing. Neither a cover-up not a shouting match is useful. I agree that this dialogue should be between experts. However, in my opinion, non-experts can follow and comment on the dialogue, as long as they keep their comments sane and civilised.

In my opinion, the different writing styles are a point of worry, as long as it occurs in one isolated find. Of course, writing styles can change over time. I have had to learn to read 17th century handwritten Dutch at an age I could read contemporary texts fluently. However, the writing style changes gradually over time, not with a big bang. I would like to know if transitional coins exist, partly in old style, partly in new style characters. Yes, I am aware that a character set could be introduced by a ruler, such as Mongolian script by Kublai Khan. That concerns a whole new way of writing, though, not a more or less subtle change in forming characters. Yet, you could throw simplified Chinese at me and my only argument would be that it is the exception confirming the rule. In short, I am not ready to accept or reject the writing style argument.

Next, there is Senior's extraordinary clairvoyance that Freeston mentions. I do not believe you can predict the future. If Senior did not make some false predictions as well, I would be highly suspicious.

Then, there is the question if the fakes (they are clearly fakes, they fall apart when cleaned and they smell) Bactrianumis mentions in this thread come from the same population as the coins Freeston is talking about.

I would very highly appreciate if you'd keep us informed, Oesho. This needs to be handled well and therefore transparently, or the hobby as well as the science suffer.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.