Author Topic: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan  (Read 4228 times)

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Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2018, 01:52:54 PM »
Also i will be following the discussion with interest !

Anthony

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2018, 08:10:50 AM »
Just another example demonstrating CNG attitude towards tooled coins. In this case it is not fakes, but cleaned and artificially patinated coins, further presented by CNG "experts" as "Near VF, dark brown patina..". Below are photos before and after cleaning and patination:

Offline EWC

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2018, 10:20:28 AM »
Just another example demonstrating CNG attitude towards tooled coins. In this case it is not fakes, but cleaned and artificially patinated coins, further presented by CNG "experts" as "Near VF, dark brown patina..". Below are photos before and after cleaning and patination:

I do not understand this mail.  Were they green when offered by CNG or brown?  If brown (as you state) - where were they re-patinated green, and by who? 

Rob T

Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2018, 11:17:16 AM »
I think they were offered brown by CNG. It would be unlikely that they would sell coins with clear bronze disease spots untreated. Also the surface aspect of the brown coins is very much like some other suspicious coins that have been offerered through them in the recent past.
The consigner may have been right in treating these coins, but this manner of "preservation" is also not to my liking.

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2018, 01:15:11 PM »
I examined these 2 coins before they ended up at CNG. There was no trace of bronze disease, just dry sandy deposits, typical for Zabulistan finds. Identical pattern of artificial "brown" patina on numerous Central Asian copper coins offered by CNG, in my opinion, strongly suggests they are being treated by CNG itself, and not by consignors (unless there is one single consigner for all these coins, both tooled fakes and authentic, which is highly unlikely).

Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2018, 01:33:43 PM »
If these were just stable green deposits the treatment would almost become tooling and was unneccessary.
For the Indo-Scythian and Indo-Greek bronzes offered by CNG i have reasons to believe that these largely come from one single source. Don't know for the Central Asian category as a whole.

Offline EWC

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2018, 01:39:12 PM »
I examined these 2 coins before they ended up at CNG. There was no trace of bronze disease, just dry sandy deposits, typical for Zabulistan finds. Identical pattern of artificial "brown" patina on numerous Central Asian copper coins offered by CNG, in my opinion, strongly suggests they are being treated by CNG itself, and not by consignors (unless there is one single consigner for all these coins, both tooled fakes and authentic, which is highly unlikely).

OK thanks.  Actually in the past I have been paid - not to clean coins - but rather to give an opinion about whether they should be cleaned.  I have to say in this case I would  have advised against it.  Re- Patinating coins after cleaning is entirely normal and has been going on for centuries.  That is how so many lovely Roman coppers got to look the way they do.  It is not from the soil.  However, I agree that in this case the job was badly done.  But all this seems to have nothing at all to do with "tooling".

Rob T

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2019, 08:59:09 PM »
Couple more of recently auctioned tooled fakes:
acsearch.info - Auction research
acsearch.info - Auction research

Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2019, 10:01:51 PM »
Thanks for adding. As a gradually see more of these they become easier to recognize. Still, this flood of fakes is very damaging for the trust of collectors and seems to deter many from pursuing new additions to their collections.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2019, 11:15:32 PM »
Doctored or tooled coins can’t be described as fakes. It are most of the times coins found in an archaeological context with thick layer of encrustation. By trying to remove the encrustation mechanically there may be some aspects accentuating certain details. A more professional treatment and better preservation would prevent that. Nevertheless tooling doesn’t make the coin a fake, it remains still an authentic historical artefact, only the interpretations of some details may be effected by the way of cleaning.

The last coin shown above is IMHO an authentic piece and in no way a fake. It becomes a bit of a paranoia to call new discoveries (see earlier discussion in this tread) and somewhat ill treaded coins 'tooled fakes’ or forgeries, which they are not.

Offline Desibot

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2019, 01:24:57 AM »
Couple more of recently auctioned tooled fakes:
acsearch.info - Auction research
acsearch.info - Auction research

How can you tell they are tooled or fake from some pictures?

Without examining them in hand or any sort of testing.

 

Offline gpimper

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2019, 04:30:36 AM »
Fascinating.  Chopped originals or total fakes?  We've a number that turned out to be chopped down; Byzantine for the most part.  Need to learn more about how they do fakes.  I don't think we have any but you never know!  Thank you for the Indo-Greek shout out.  We'd not gone down that path...we've identified four more coins out of our mess.  We'll post :-)

Greg
The Chief...aka Greg

Offline THCoins

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2019, 08:48:36 AM »
Dear Oesho,
I had several of what you call "tooled coins" in my hand. When you say
Quote
only the interpretations of some details may be effected by the way of cleaning
i think you severely under-appreciate the facts. By new engraving and use of artificial resin and patination entirely new legends and pictorials are being created of which there was not a single trace left on the cleaned coin. For me that clearly crosses the border into fake territory. Also, these are sold with the intent of deceit.
That there is ample evidence of modern fakes emerging from Pakistan is another, but equally worrying matter.

Offline EWC

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2019, 09:07:16 AM »
My reaction was similar to Oesho's

I can see nothing wrong with the second piece from the scan – and if it is fraudulent - then that does not seem to be due to “tooling”

Rob T

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2019, 11:51:47 AM »
How can you tell they are tooled or fake from some pictures?

Without examining them in hand or any sort of testing.

Primarily, combination of the following:
- "sandy" deposits partially covering the surfaces - spotted only around high relief features of coin's legend (w. no traces of cleaning on bare parts of surfaces)
- form of letters in coin's legend
- black or dark green layer of tar-like "patination"
Secondary indicator – coin’s origin. Majority of tooled fakes I handled are from Pakistan.
Last but not least – turns out that combination «Indo-Greek/Bactrian Greek copper+newly discovered type» requires extensive scrutiny of the coin.
And let’s be honest – items with purposely reconstructed or altered features and legends, to represent the most sought after or unpublished types of Indo-Greek or Bactrian AE’s are not “authentic historical artefacts”, but forgeries/fakes intended to hoodwink the collectors’ community..
BTW, here is another one:
acsearch.info - Auction research
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 12:59:27 PM by BACTRIANUMIS »