Author Topic: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan  (Read 4237 times)

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Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
« on: February 26, 2018, 01:03:21 PM »
Fake patina made with multiple layers of paint or some other similar material. Not sure any more if the coin itself is old or new. Here is how it looked like when it first came from Pakistan, then after simple soapy water bath, and finally, when i started to peel off the layers of “paint”...Any comments / thoughts are much appreciated!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 05:05:01 PM by Figleaf »

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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I think if I continued it would look somewhat like this:

Offline THCoins

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These practices have made me shy away from Bactrian bronzes originating from Pakistani sellers.
Unfortunately, i have seen both clearly genuine coins with had been stripped to the metal with acid, and clear fakes with a painted patina.
It becomes increasingly hard to judge these from a photo. Only thing i can say is that the mint marks on these two specimen luckily are not identical.

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Yes, for me as well it will be a good experience to stay away from this type of coppers from Pakistan..I also had a more critical look at some other coins I bought earlier, and some CNG lots - I'm confident my Archebios piece i purchased in 2015 from Pakistan is covered with fake patina, as well as following CNG lots (these are the most obvious artificially patinated, but looks like there is much more of them in CNG database):

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=347394
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=150978
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=263988

P.S. Initially this Archebios coin was covered with a sort of sandy deposits, similar to these, but those were very easy to remove with a couple of touches of toothbrush in a soapy worm water...so, looks like fellas fake both patina and deposits :(
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 02:47:07 PM by vaxtankava »

Offline THCoins

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In 2014 i complained with CNG because of a coin which mostly consisted of an artificial resin. Look here.

They promised to keep a closer eye on these, and also more often have added notes about possible tooling or restoration. From their photo's these are quite easy to spot because of the different surface structure of the filler. They did not stop to offer these "restored" coins though.

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Holy bucket of nuts!!! :o What a thread of tooled coins..I'm spaechless..No wonder why these Pakistani rarities are so nice:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41677.msg262959.html#msg262959

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41600.0.html

Luckily, I declined the offer to buy the whole group of Indo-Greek scares coppers (Strato, Zoilos, Dyonysios, etc.) that were accompanying this Euthydemos II unit...But I was fortunate to have them photographed, measured and uploaded on ZENO..they are all tooled..legends re-carved and restored with resin patty…I will put my comments and warnings to the community there shortly.




Offline Figleaf

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Thank you for posting them here, vaxtankava. They will be an important reference for members and guests alike. May those who are willing to do anything for money one day eat painted rice and painted bread.

Fake patina is not a fad. There were times when collectors used patina as a way to recognise genuine or fake classical coins. Fakers came up with chemical patina in response, so it's no longer as important as it once was, but the more primitive fraudsters haven't got the message yet.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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You are very welcome! I'm really happy and grateful to forum's community for assistance as well....There is one more thing I forgot to mention as a distinctive feature for all these tooled fakes - all coins literally smell chemicals, with sulfur-like odour. Hope it’s not hazardous for collector's health when one handles these items with bare hands or something.. :-\

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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I'm also pretty much sure following items (as well as CNG specimen) are modern fakes produced using the same tooling technology. I'm afraid most of Indo-Greek coppers posted so far by Desibot are modern fakes, presumably produced in Pakistan:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41533.msg262726.html#msg262726

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41575.msg262309.html#msg262309

Same pertains to all following "coins" also:

Offline Figleaf

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Desibot's high tendency to find fakes can only be explained by buying from the wrong dealers. However, the dealers may have been fooled in turn. I sent him a PM.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Desibot

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Hi thanks figleaf for the link message.  :)
Also to vaxtankava and Thcoin on your info on this thread
When buying I normally stick to my fave coins which are indo greek silver drachms  2g etc or sasanians coins . Mainly coins i have seen and handled and know about. I was looking to expand to other coins e.g gold coins and also copper/bronze indo greek coins. With limited knowledge on most coins
Any i did come across i posted on here for further help identifying them. Most coins i have shared from pakistan / afghan / india been offered from chinese dealers i come across.
But some sellers are in the u.k / Germany  i persume a wider network of counterfeiting . I did buy few cheap ones on my travels as personal study even though dodgy to get a feel of coins and examine closely in help indentify  casting /tooling etc which are all fairly new concepts to me understanding. Reading about cng and finding of other reputable company's dealing in coins that are not right  is shocking to say least :o i feel much safer with banknotes.
I have been in touch with various specialists who have
Offered help in identifying coins i have and some i posted on here and in due course will add any info to the relevant coin  post. I have too mention we do have our own resident specialist on Here who have been great in identifying coins on here. As for dealers i think on various local to high level will turn a blind eye for a fast buck :(. For now i think i stick to sasanian coins and drachms.


 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 03:34:53 PM by Desibot »

Offline BACTRIANUMIS

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Looks like the problem is much bigger than I initially thought. I found dozens of similar fakes on sale and already sold by Vcoins dealers, such as this one...And some reputable and well known dealers look to be hoodwinked by these fakes as well... :-\


Offline Desibot

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If you can help me out here guys when mentioning tooled coins
Does it mean

It is a Original .... coin modified to enhance it.
 faded or worn  parts etched out and resin or putty mentioned above added to correct legends or parts of a coin.

If coin is original and tooled further CNG etc should mention this when listing.


Offline PeaceBD

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Looks like the problem is much bigger than I initially thought. I found dozens of similar fakes on sale and already sold by Vcoins dealers, such as this one...And some reputable and well known dealers look to be hoodwinked by these fakes as well... :-\

This is a very good post. A lot of these coin coming out today are either outright fakes made in pakistan or are very highly doctored and tooled to improve grade. It is also not limited to bronzes but there are bactrian/indogreek silvers which are so good it would be hard to identify as fake unless die identical replicas are found.
This is not Bactrian/ Indo greek but here is another one from Vcoin. Look at the all his Roman bronzes. They are all equally colored/treated .
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/zurqieh-171/ancient-coins/_roman_-12243.aspx?#!/category/_roman_/?idCategory=12243&searchDisplayAsList=False&searchMaxRecords=100&store_order_by=dateadded_desc&countitems=2225&changeDisplayList=False&page=2
I will try to add some more images of Indo-greek/Indo Skythian fakes from my fake coin pics records.

Offline PeaceBD

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Azes Drachm Fake